Tribal Police - OPM or California PO's?

[relative]

Anybody know much about Tribal Police Departments?

I know that I have seen Tribal Police Officer Positions through OPM, if I am not mistaken.

I recently applied to a tribal police department in Northern California. The thing is it wasnt through OPM it was just a regular app, like all other PD/SOs in the area... I emailed somebody at the department and asked them, and they confirmed that their officers are Peace Officers under California law and are considered so with the same benefits (PERS) etc.

Anybody know much about this?

I could bug the department again, but I figure Id bug you guys instead of them :)

-r.

[Kahuna5150]

Originally posted by relative
I recently applied to a tribal police department in Northern California.... I emailed somebody at the department and asked them, and they confirmed that their officers are Peace Officers under California law and are considered so with the same benefits (PERS) etc.

Anybody know much about this?

I could bug the department again, but I figure Id bug you guys instead of them :)

-r.

What department is this? I have not heard of *ANY* tribal police departments that are #1 PERS or #2 considered to be peace officers by the state (830 PC series).

I'm not questioning what you were told (well that's a lie actually I am, but it's out of curiousity), but rather what Indian Police Department here in CA is PERS and/or peace officers.

Kahuna

[nsedet]

Originally posted by Kahuna5150
What department is this? I have not heard of *ANY* tribal police departments that are #1 PERS or #2 considered to be peace officers by the state (830 PC series).


Kahuna,
Don't know what department 'relative' is referring to, but I remember looking at a department that has land in both CA and NV, and they had peace officer status in both states.

[relative]

Sweet, now Im really wondering what the hell is going on with these guys :)

Its the Jackson Rancheria Band of Me-Wuk (Miwuk sometimes the spelling is different) Indians. They are around the Jackson, CA area.. I dunno, I looked around the net and couldnt come up with too much info except they are a real registered indian tribe :)

thanks for any more info!

-r.

[nsedet]

relative,
One thing with tribal police (other than the departments run by the U.S. Bureau of Indian Affairs) is that they have no civil service protection and serve at the will of the tribal council. Can be a very political environment...I know there are tribes in WA where officers hesitate to take any enforcement action against certain individuals (a friend of mine, who was a local officer at the time, had to intervene in an agg assault situation where a tribal officer was on scene but refused to intervene because of WHO the offender was). There was a good write-up on tribal police a while ago (it may be posted on this board somewhere) talking about how understaffed and underequipped many tribes are for the area they cover.

[Kahuna5150]

The only tribal police I am aware of are the Washoe tribal law enforcment officers. I think the Jackson Rancheria is more or less non-law enforcement casino security (I could be wrong). Again I would be interested in learning they are PERS members. I snipped a section of the CA Penal Code that defines Peace Officers in CA. The first part 830.8 PC is merely where the section starts, but is interesting how backwards CA is in not just making Fed LEO's peace officers in the state.

Who knows what the legislature was thinking...

Anyway if you want to search (I didn't spend the time doing it) for specific sections relating to this you can check out www.leginfo.ca.gov Serchable database of all CA laws. Very useful!

Kahuna

830.8. (a) Federal criminal investigators and law enforcement
officers are not California peace officers, but may exercise the
powers of arrest of a peace officer in any of the following
circumstances:

***SNIPPED****

e) (1) Any qualified person who is appointed as a Washoe tribal
law enforcement officer is not a California peace officer, but may
exercise the powers of a Washoe tribal peace officer when engaged in the enforcement of Washoe tribal criminal laws against any person who is an Indian, as defined in subsection (a) of Section 450b of Title 25 of the United States Code, on Washoe tribal land. The respective prosecuting authorities, in consultation with law enforcement agencies, may agree on who shall have initial responsibility for prosecution of specified infractions. This subdivision is not meant to confer cross-deputized status as California peace officers, nor to
confer California peace officer status upon Washoe tribal law
enforcement officers when enforcing state or local laws in the State of California. Nothing in this section shall be construed to impose liability upon or to require indemnification by the County of Alpine or the State of California for any act performed by an officer of the Washoe Tribe. Washoe tribal law enforcement officers shall have the right to travel to and from Washoe tribal lands within California in order to carry out tribal duties.

[BOMB-DOG]

1st things first.....

tribal police generally fall under federal authority, which means that they derive their power and authority from the US Code (USC), not the california penal code. federal officers are not california peace officers, but are federal officers. they are recognized as peace officers (CPC 830.8, read the 'entire' section) for the purpose of arrest.

many ca peace officers will argue with you about peace officer status while working for the feds, and being "on duty", and carrying a weapon 'off duty'.

tell them to pack sand. feds are USC not CA penal code. feds have fed status, not state status. feds are 'on duty' as long as you are employed with a fed agency. not just your 8 hour shift. feds have US/ territory wide carrying authority (subject to agency specific restrictions).

i went to POST and got a cert of completion, and had retards that told me that they would arrest a fed off duty if he were carrying a weapon. guess, what ... one of those retard actually tried it. the fed officer called his SAC, who called the US atty, who had the local police officer fired.

anyways....

the particular tribe (jackson rancheria) are mainly casino security. they require their people to have a completion of a basic POST academy, not to be confused with a POST certificate, which is what you get after a year of work under a POST recognized agency. they require this, so that they can have some peace of mind that their security officers have some formal training and knowledge.

i know, now your going to ask how i know this.... well, i have a federal officer who works for me who just came from there. they are NOT a POST cert agency... if you go to the POST web site, it will list all the POST certified agencies.

if you go fed, try to get a position with '6c' coverage. other wise get your POST and go with a cert agency with 'pers' coverage


hope this helps........

[papimike]

IN REFERENCE TO ONE OF THE QUESTIONS IN THE ORIGINAL POST.....

SOME TRIBES HIRE THROUGH OPM AND FALL UNDER THE BUREAU OF INDIAN AFFAIRS (U.S. GOVT AGENCY).

SOME TRIBES ARE SO CALLED INDEPENDENT AND DO NOT HIRE THROUGH OPM BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT "RUN" BY BIA.

HENCE FORTH YOU WILL HAVE A GREAT DEGREE OF DIFFERENCE BETWEEN BENEFITS WITH A FED RUN TRIBE AND NON-FED RUN TRIBE.

KEEP IN MIND, SOME TRIBES ARE NOT RECOGNIZED AS LEGITIMATE TRIBES BY STATE OR FEDERAL GOVERNMENT. SOME ARE RECOGNIZED BY THE STATE AND NOT FEDS.

I KNOW A FEW THAT REQUIRE YOU TO OBTAIN A STATE PISTOL PERMIT PRIOR TO OBTAINING EMPLOYMENT-THE ONEIDA INDIAN TRIBAL POLICE IN NEW YORK STATE IS ONE OF THEM.

[kennethm3]

Having backed-up Tribal Police (Tohono O'odham) on the res I suggest that you drive out and look around any reservation that you plan on applying to. In my opinion Tribal Police on any reservation are the most under paid and overworked men and women in law enforcement, not to mention that you are going to have to live there on the res. Everyone is going to know who you are and where you live and because you aren't from there you will have a real hard time being accepted. Tribal Police are probably involved in more shootings than the Border Patrol (thats a lot). Most calls are domestic disturbances, alcohol and guns play a big part in those. The guys I had a chance to work with had their work cut out for them, a good group of guys, they had good equipment and seemed well organized but they were undermanned and under appreciated. Turnover is very high. Good luck, stay safe.

[Kahuna5150]

Originally posted by BOMB-DOG
federal officers are not California peace officers, but are federal officers. they are recognized as peace officers (CPC 830.8, read the 'entire' section) for the purpose of arrest.

Not really sure where you're coming from on this one.. Not really sure what your point is either... I have read the 'entire' section of 830.8 and it also states a federal officer/agent must have taken the 832 pc training in order to exercise these powers... Again I don't know what your point is... A federal officer/agent is not primarily tasked with functions that would require or make them even want to have CA peace officer status... I guess if an FBI agent or some other federal officer wanted to chase down a shoplifter or something for petty theft they would want the peace officer status to cover them?


many ca peace officers will argue with you about peace officer status while working for the feds, and being "on duty", and carrying a weapon 'off duty'.

I myself am a CA peace officer and I can say that in all of my experiences this is untrue. I'm sure there are exceptions to every rule, but I have *NEVER* seen or even *HEARD* of any CA peace officer ever giving a federal agent/officer a hard time. Most of us (CA officers) assume an off-duty FBI, ATF, USCS, or USSS Agent has the right to carry off duty on their fed credentials. The reason we assume this is we work with them and have been told so and/or have had some exposure to them... Now can a special agent with an OIG carry off-duty? Some OIG's say no, but their officers do anyway.. .How bout AFOSI? What is DOE's policy? I bet most feds don't even know... and more importantly WHO CARES? If a customs inspector or OIG special agent, or whoever is carrying off-duty and they have legitimate law enforcement creds, what local LEO is going to hook them up? It's not my job to enforce an agency policy on firearms. Your badge says, "Officer", "Inspector", "Special Agent", etc and you are carrying off-duty against your agency policy, then that's a job for your agency to deal with, not another LEO.


tell them to pack sand. feds are USC not CA penal code. feds have fed status, not state status. feds are 'on duty' as long as you are employed with a fed agency. not just your 8 hour shift. feds have US/ territory wide carrying authority (subject to agency specific restrictions).

"tell them to pack sand". Great advice... If you're a federal officer/agent and you're coming into contact with a local LEO, that's a real good attitude to have. Really gives credibility to yourself and everyone you represent in your agency. In most cases a fed is going to have contact with a local LEO on a traffic stop or some other type of crime call. So when you tell the local LEO to "pack sand" it probably doesn't give much to your hope (if you have one) of some professional courtesy. Again you are free to say what you wish, but why be so adversarial? I could hear myself asking a fed on a traffic stop "So you guys can carry anywhere, even on planes?" just as a curious officer... Let someone be rude to me and it kind of changes the context of the contact doesn't it?

one of those retard actually tried it. the fed officer called his SAC, who called the US atty, who had the local police officer fired.

Interesting.. Again, anything is possible, but I would love to know what officer from what agency attempted to arrest a fed officer for carrying a weapon... If the fed officer was drunk, or involved in a crime of some sort I could see something like that might happen, but the arrest only for carrying a weapon off-duty? And for a SAC to call the US Atty, who in turn gets the officer fired?? Again that seems very far fetched to me.... This sounds more like an urban police ledged than anything else. We've all heard of the officer that wrote his own mother a ticket, the chief, etc, etc. I also have to say I've heard of the federal agent arrested by a local LEO. This story was of a Border Patrol Agent who was arrested by a TX officer... Never was able to get the source or proof this ever happened, but it's a story I hear in a different form all the time (maybe your story is a variation of it?).

Kahuna

[nsedet]

Originally posted by Kahuna5150
This story was of a Border Patrol Agent who was arrested by a TX officer... Never was able to get the source or proof this ever happened, but it's a story I hear in a different form all the time (maybe your story is a variation of it?).


I know of four different instances where local or state officers in Texas told agents they could not carry off-duty because the state did not recognize them as peace officers. Two of those incidents involved the same officer, who also happens to be the only LEO in Texas, out of the many I stopped to provide back-up for, who walked away from the subject he was interviewing to tell me that my partner and I could leave because he did not need back-up...it was not said in a friendly way. In both cases, the officer flat out lost his argument with the agent...in the first, the agent was a senior agent and called the officer on the issue, and once supervisors from both agencies arrived, the issue was resolved with the officer being told he was wrong. In the second incident involving the same officer, a new agent ended up missing his bus and having to fly to Houston because the officer (who was working interdiction on the bus) told the young agent that he could not carry his weapon and would have to get off the bus...I would not have gotten up, but the agent was new and young, so it was not until afterwards that the matter was resolved with the officer again being told he was wrong. The othe two incidents involved DPS troopers: in one case, during a traffic stop, the trooper began berrating the female agent in a very inappropriate manner, telling her she could not carry a firearm off-duty; when a complaint was made, the DPS supervisor said the trooper's video camera had not been functioning at the time, so the tape did not show the encounter. I do remember hearing of one instance where an agent was arrested by Dallas Police for carrying a weapon off-duty, an issue which was supposedly resolved within a few days in favor of the agent...I take that story as pretty credible, but wouldn't swear to its accuracy because it is third hand information. The South Texas incidents above are accurate, though.

I have heard this "you are not a peace officer" argument from officers in Texas, but not here in California. I am sure some do have that view, although the reality is that CA (through the Attorney General) does recognize most Federal agents and officers as being exempt from CCW requirements (this is not the same as being recognized as a peace officer).

Federal agents and officers are not inherently authorized to carry firearms. This is determined both by law and by agency policy. There are certainly better ways to deal with any issues or conflicts than by throwing the "I'm a Federal agent" argument at a local or state cop. Any conflicts are usually best resolved by getting supervisors involved right away, or going along with the on-duty officers perspective and getting the matter addressed after the fact; which approach is best depends on the situation and what the issue is, as some issues need to be fought for and addressed immediately, others can wait for a better time and place.

Incidentally, I do know of one instance where a Federal officer was arrested in possession of a firearm. It's been awhile since I read the news article and talked to some individuals who knew about the incident, but the basics are that officer was a civilian police officer for a military branch who had an encounter with local police at a bar. I forget the specifics, and have no idea what the disposition was, but it was an incident caused by the Federal officer, not the local cops. That certainly can't be the incident that BOMB-DOG is referring to, though, because that officer would not have worked for a "SAC." I have not heard of any other similar incidents in CA, which you would think would have received a certain amount of publicity within FLEOA.

[Kahuna5150]

Originally posted by nsedet
[B]I know of four different instances where local or state officers in Texas told agents they could not carry off-duty because the state did not recognize them as peace officers.

I have no problem believing that... I think you're going to find the odd officer (or officers) in some areas (all 50 states) that think they're status as a peace officer in the state is supreme and no one else has any right to carry a weapon off-duty. Again they are clearly wrong. Sure a state officer is given that authority by a state law... A federal officer is given that authority by federal law. Both work just as well (allowing the off-duty carry) for each of the respective officers/agents. Certainly an officer with the feds is probably going to want some state peace officer status if they elect to enforce a law that is not covered by their federal authority. I used the shoplifting as an example. If you're a federal agent with (insert agency here) and your authority is for specific offenses and you act against a crime not covered by your authority, you'll either have to get that state authority to pick up and cover you or... *GASP* you'll have to make a citizen's arrest.. :) Either way the weapon issue is a moot point as you are allowed to carry under your respective authority. I would no more expect a federal agent/officer to tell me I couldn't carry off-duty in CA (minus federal exclusive jurisdictional issues) than I would tell them they couldn't in CA.



Two of those incidents involved the same officer, who also happens to be the only LEO in Texas, out of the many I stopped to provide back-up for, who walked away from the subject he was interviewing to tell me that my partner and I could leave because he did not need back-up...it was not said in a friendly way.

All I can say about this is... What an idiot... I don't care if you're a federal agent/officer a state officer/agent, local cop, deputy, ranger, correctional officer, etc. etc. You see me on the side of the road by myself on a traffic stop and you can safely stop and ID yourself as a fellow LEO, at the very *LEAST* I'll be grateful and more than likely I'll probably ask you to hang tight till I'm done with my stop. This serves two purposes. First it shows the bad guys (or minor traffic violator) that there are *LOTS* of other LEOs out there in plain clothes that will stop, so maybe they'll think twice about trying to out number me on a stop since they never know what other LEO might be on the way to provide backup. Second reason I'll ask you to hang tight? I'll want to BS with you a bit about where you work etc, etc, to show my appreciation for stopping. Sure there might be a time when things are so hectic it would be better for another off-duty LEO (not from the same jurisdiction or known to the locals) to stay back and observe from a distance as not to distract the officer, but even then just swinging by after the stop to say you were down the road a bit making sure all was OK would be greatly appreciated! Those that would turn you away rudely are shameful and god help them when that decision costs them (or someone) else their life.



I do remember hearing of one instance where an agent was arrested by Dallas Police for carrying a weapon off-duty, an issue which was supposedly resolved within a few days in favor of the agent...I take that story as pretty credible, but wouldn't swear to its accuracy because it is third hand information. The South Texas incidents above are accurate, though.

This still surprises me... I don't think for a minute it couldn't happen, but it would still be a shocker to have that confirmed. I'm willing to bet at some point somewhere an officer tried this or maybe even hooked a fed, but I can't imagine no one at the department (supervisor) or jail facility wouldn't pick up on this when the fed asked to use the phone or speak to a supervisor. I'm willing to agree that anything is possible.

I have heard this "you are not a peace officer" argument from officers in Texas, but not here in California.

Again I can say... Big deal... Why does a local officer feel the need to say a fed officer/agent isn't a peace officer per state law? Again these are the guys that cause bad blood between agencies. Certainly any federal agent/officer would probably be well qualified to get a peace officer job in any state. Obviously they don't want one... I myself can say being a peace officer in CA and/or anywhere else is nothing magical. Certainly it's authority you want and need to do your job, but if/when I am hired as a federal agent/officer (and if I stay in CA) will I worry about not being a CA peace officer anymore? Absolutely not! Why would I care either way? (and there's no attitude or tone intended here toward anyone (I know you know me well enough nsedet that you're not taking this as anything smart toward you :) ).

As for the civilian military cop arrested at a bar. This sounds legit as well. I have personally been around when other LEOs have been arrested. Not a good feeling to see it happen, but it has *ALWAYS* been directly because of the inappropriate actions of the LEO. In one instance an off-duty officer slapped his wife and per the domestic violence laws was arrested. I also know of another deputy sheriff that had gotten very drunk and in a fight with some people at a bar. He was arrested and *LATER* identified during his arrest. During a search of his person his badge and ID were found... Right next to a large bag of marijuana in his pocket. So I really have no sympathy for him. I don't think most other LEOs would either. I myself had the unfortunate time of arresting a CA Department of Corrections Officer (state peace officers here in CA). Traffic violation, no ID in possession (work or otherwise), suspended DL, and a warrant for his arrest for failing to appear for a prior DUI arrest. Again he gave me a VERBAL ID of his status as a peace officer, but in the course of trying to verify it, his DL and warrant status came back bad. Wasn't till after we got a hold of someone with CDC that we verified he was legit. Already stuck with the warrant and suspended DL. He got citations for both... Even though he was in the wrong I still felt bad about it (and I know many would argue he's just a guard, etc, etc, but I think that's a lame excuse, he wears the badge also).

I've said this time and time again. With all the bad people out there that want to hurt or kill us, and even some of the good people trying to threaten and complain on us... Don't we have enough to worry about (LEOs) without finding reason to attack or disrespect each other?

I'm a local guy, nsedet is a fed. I (and everyone I work with) considers nsedet just as much of a cop as any of us...I think you'll find in 99.9% of the departments in 99.9% of the states the attitude is the same...at least I hope... (Sorry for using you as an example nsedet, but it worked well! :) )

Kahuna