View Full Version : Marines as Special Forces?
I recently had a discussion at work with a friend of mine who is usually off base on more than one topic. But i recently mentioned about Pat Tillman and his leaving the NFL to become an Army Ranger, to which he went off stating that Rangers are too cocky and are nothing, he then said he would take the Marines or Green Berets over them any day of the week. Now let me mention this guy is a proficient dope smoker and i dont know how many brain cells he has left, he tried to get into the Marines out of high school but he said his eyes were too bad, yet he wears contacts now, this guy is 35 years old now.
Now i replied with a WHAT?! He was pretty much calling Rangers *******. I told him they are pretty damn elite group and i thought were considered special forces. He then said that the Marines were special forces. Now i always thought that the Marines was a branch of the Navy, and they had their own special forces group, hence Force Recon. The Navy has the Seals and the Army has the Green Berets, Rangers, and Delta? Just wondering if someone could give me some clarification.
Thanks
http://www.specialoperations.com/Units/military.htm
Follow that link and it should answer any questions you have regarding any special operations forces. I believe Tillman is trying to become a member of the 75th Ranger Regiment. These men are not *******. The Marine Corps in itself is not a special operations force. Your co-worker is an idiot.
Semper Fi
Thanks,
I knew that the Marines themselves were not a special forces group but had their own special forces units. About my co-worker, you dont know the half of it man...
Green Berets are headgear and the name of a Movie, they are not a military unit. If you want to see some guy in a salad suit with crossed arrows on his collar and an arrowhead patch on his left sleeve, then call him a Green Beret. Special Forces is not just the M.O. it is the name of the Branch.
Within the Army, there are several units and braches which are considered Special Operations. Civil Affairs and Psyops, along with SOAR 160 come to mind. The Army Rangers are considered by the Army as an Airborne Infantry Ranger Regiment, and not Special Ops. Granted they answer to CinC SOC, and since 1983 and the invasion of Grenada, their mission has adopted a Spec Ops methodology.
As far as Marines go, they do not have a dedicated Special Ops unit, however, when a Marine Amphib Unit sets sail, each of the units has been trained and is capable of carrying out Special Operations tasks and missions. Recall the mission to rescue USAF Capt. Scott O'Grady.
RoscoeRuhl
07-13-2002, 05:51
I agree that your friend IS an IDIOT!
Cocky is in the eyes of the beholder. I'll tell you that no beret, flash or uniform is the measure of a man/woman (being politically correct)! There can be found a great deal of pride in every soldier, sailor, marine, airman etc!! There is also great pride in being part of a select group, one that doesn't easily allow membership. The US Army Rangers have a distinct and proud history, if I'm not mistaken dating back to the days of the revolutionary war. The Green Beret's (Special Forces) have a similar history, as I'm sure that each SOF group has, regardless of branch. These warriors have earned the right to be cocky and hence, the ability to strut their stuff.
As has been mentioned before, each individual thinks their "club" is better and has better stuff! If you think you've got what it takes, join the club. If not, think what you want and be envious as hell!
Have a great day!
I would reccommend Shadow Warrior by Tom Clancy and Gen. Carl Stiner, USA Ret. for more information on the topic.
I also forgot to ring in with my vote on your buddy as well. He's an idiot, or as we used to call them in the Army....a one delta ten tango (1D10T). Something else I'd like to add. Most of the guys that you will run into that likes to brag about being in SF, or Spec Ops in any branch of the service are generally liars. Each branch of the Services has the unique abililty to geneticly alter each of their warriors and remove the braggart gene. Guys that have "been there" and actually "done that" usually won't talk about it. There was a time when Seals were instructed to tell anyone that asked, "I'm in the Band".
Roscoe, the Rangers go back one war farther, the French and Indian War. Major Rogers founded the first Ranger Unit and created the 12 Ranger's Rules still in existance today.
The Marine Corps is not part of SOCOM and most likely will never be for many reasons the #1 reason being giving up control. There are more spec ops in the marines then Force Recon. When a BLT gears up for a deployment (PUMP) they go through MEU SOC training. There is also a group within the Marines called SOTG (Special Operations Training Group) they started out as training door kickers in Force but have branched off to many things now.
RoscoeRuhl
07-14-2002, 05:26
I stand historically corrected!
My numbers were off as to years and I am familiar with Maj Rogers and the origin of the Rangers.
Have a great day!
helo_bubba
07-15-2002, 13:17
Actually, check out last week's Marine Corps Times. Since the Marine Corps and various SOCOM forces worked together so closely during Enduring Freedom, the Commandant is looking into creating a separate force to join the unified SOCOM. According to the article, the proposed unit would be a "tier two" spec ops unit, on par with normal SEAL and Special Forces, but not to the level of SEAL Team 6 or Delta Force.
The Corps has had the MEU(SOC) capability for some time now. We haven't been part of SOCOM because of the unique role the MEUs play in naval force projection. Again, you can look forward to a lot more cooperation between Marines the special operations forces as a result of our experiences in Afghanistan. Ground and air Marines worked closely with unconventional forces, and the world got to see the impressive capability of the MEU.
The line Marine Corps may not be actual snake eaters, but I'd take a MEU(SOC) Battalion Landing Team over a Ranger Battalion any day of the week and twice on Sunday for any op that didn't require a parachute.
Phrogs phorever,
Bubba
bubba,
I would like to know what objective criteria you based your "...any day of the week..." Ranger v. MEU(SOC) statement on.
I am not so sure you can make a blanket statement like that unless you have first hand knowledge of each unit's capabilities. Please correct me if I am in error.
helo_bubba
07-15-2002, 18:59
In regards to first hand knowledge, as far as the Marine side, I've done two MEU(SOC) deployments. During the first one, we were the first Americans in Kosovo as part of KFOR. No Rangers with us there, but the "Big Red One" made it eventually. During the second, I spent a month in Afghanistan, alongside and working with a Ranger unit, and handing the base over to the 101st Air Assault. So, I think I do have enough experience to make an intelligent comparison, although I don't enjoy blowing my own horn.
The "any day of the week" comment may have been a little flippant and over the top, and for that I apologize. However, in terms of its level of training and its ability to conduct special operations missions, the BLT portion of the MEU(SOC) meets or exceeds the capabilities of the Rangers. Remember that the Ground Combat Element of the MEU isn't just a bunch of grunts running up the beach.
The SOC certification encompasses over 20 separate missions, from amphibious assault to noncombatant evacuation to ship seizure to weapons of mass destruction recovery. It has companies trained in heloborne, small boat, and mech ops. You also have a Recon det, Force Recon det, and scout snipers, for the in-depth snoop-and-poop type stuff. Couple that with a fairly robust conventional warfare capability (LAVs, AAVs, sometimes M1A1s) and its combined arms (air, arty), the MEU(SOC) gives more bang-for-the-buck than any other military organization of similar size. That's with the possible exception of the Israelis, and my favorite guys, the Australian SAS (now those dudes are BAD). IMHO.
Semper fi,
helo_bubba
When it comes to special ops, everyone seems to forget the USAF. Dont forget that we have 3 types of special forces as well. We have the PJ's, who go out and rescure downed aircrew, combat controlers who do a whole crapload of stuff clearing forward landing areas, and TAC-P's who ride around with the army and laze targets to get schwacked. Just making sure we give credit where credit is due.
Bubba,
I don't take issue with either your experience or the undisputable capabilities of the MEU. I will say, though, that your experience is quite impressive and more than I would've assumed, but I still don't believe it is of the type sufficient to qualify your earlier statement.
A MEU is truly an awesome fighting force, but in this case, you are definitely comparing apples and oranges. The mission of a MUE(SOC) BLT and the typical Ranger mission are completely different. Neither unit can do what the other does nearly half as well.
In the same vein, you cannot compare Army Special Forces to Navy SEALs or Navy SEALs to British SAS. The missions of each are different. Now, a comparison of Australian and British SAS or U.S. Navy SEALs and British Naval SBS may be appropriate because their missions are almost identical.
Anyway, I've said my piece (or is it peace). Your comment just hit me wrong for some reason.
Welcome home.
Dwight
helo_bubba
07-15-2002, 21:06
If one wants to keep everything to the strictest possible criteria, you can never compare anything. Everything is apples and oranges, if you want to split the hair finely enough. What's the better aircraft, the F-15C or F-14A+? You can say one's a naval aircraft and the other isn't, etc., etc., and therefore they cannot be compared, or you can try make an approximate comparison.
By the same token, I would say that the MEU's mission list encompasses several tasks that the Rangers offer up as specialties of theirs. For example, airfield seizure. A MEU typically practices AF seizures during a workup, and a few months ago the 15th MEU, with some assistance from the 26th, seized an airfield. My contention is that the Marines have a comparable skill level at those tasks they share with the Rangers, while bringing a robust conventional capability as well. To make an analogy, it's kind of like saying, "Yes, we both have a hammer and a screwdriver, but I also brought the complete socket wrench set, too!"
BTW, I brought up the Aussie SAS in my other post just because I got the chance to work with them in Kandahar, not because I wanted to make a direct comparison. I swear, they all looked like they came straight from "Mad Max" the home game. Great guys, too, but don't f*** with them.
TOWgunner
09-21-2002, 12:06
Bubba everytime I felt the need to chime in, you got more indepth in the statements. I believe you have the firmest grasp on the debate. I am a former Marine from a long line of army dogs. Grandfather was 4th Ranger Batt. in WWII and dad was 1st of the 1st SF and mom is a Lt. Col. so when I went Marine, jaws dropped. Growing up at Ft. Benning, Bragg, Dix, Frankfurt and so on I have met every type in the Spec Ops community. Then going Marine and playing on a few MEU (SOC)'s of my own I have first hand experience.
We all have our specialities. Some do things better than others. However MEU (SOC) is more bang for the buck and it has it all to include Seals if you need em and all the might of the Navy floating with you.
As a whole you can't mess with our MILITARY! If the Marines don't get you the the Navy will pound you from the water, Air Force from the air and the Army from the ground.
As long as we are not fighting ourselves I would walk into combat with any of the above.
As for the Aussie SAS and Brit SAS which I played with in Cobra Gold... Ditto these boys are bad ass.
Semper Gumby
Ship:biggun2:
lrsranger
10-06-2002, 08:51
I was not going to respond to this topic, but after reading through it all I had to reply. First Army Rangers (ranger battalion at least, does fall under spec opps.)as far as marines, I do not believe any fall under spec opps. But I believe there was talk of force recon going over. second you are correct about apples and oranges. The marines who ever they are and any army unit are going to be completely different. The mission you recieve and how it will be conducted. But as far as air field seziures; sorry marines, if this job comes down the Army Rangers will do it. They are so preficient, it is going to happen. I.E. 2 combat jumps to sieze airfields in afgainastan and look back to panama...bottom line you should be proud to serve your country in what ever way you do it. As a Army Ranger I have had alot of experiance with other units and branches. They all pull their part to serve and defend their country. We could argue for months on who is better, but you are always going to be leaning towards what ever branch you are from. As far as that jack ass at the beginning; the dope smoker who couldn't even get in the marines, if he thinks the Rangers are weak, come on down and see if you can make it passed the 60% to 70% failure rate.....Rangers lead the way!!!!!!!!!!!!
Sandles2Sidearm
10-07-2002, 21:50
I was always under three distinct impressions, correct me if I am wrong, but please be sure before you do....
1. The Marine Corps is largest body of Special Operations capable operatives in the world. It has been in their charter as such from their inception.
2. There is only one Special Forces and it belongs to the Army. The term Special Forces goes to those guys who originally were deeemed as such. (This does not mean that they are the best for every job and the title gives them some ________fill in your word.
3. Every division of the Military, now including the Coasties, has some form of Special Operations group:
Airforce-Para-rescue, Combat Controllers, and Recon
Navy- Special Boat Division and the SEALS
Army- Rangers (certain divisions). SOAR 160, Delta and more
Marines- Any unit they train for a specific mission and Force Recon
Coast Guard- the newly comissioned ERT (not really special operations, but pretty cool)
The point is that each group is a tool used to exact some purpose and comparing them is some vanity of the civillian sector.
"If you are taking fire it does not matter if you were an M-1, Beret in Blue, Black, Maroon, Green, Fuscia, a sailors cap, you just hope you can keep your s*#t together. Besides when you are sitting in the evac helicopter and your are smelling a pile of seared flesh on top of which is your buddy of 3 months, it really doesn't matter anyway" a quote I thought I would share from an Airman from Para-Rescue who spent his hell in the Stan...
We can only grow in the service of eachother
TOWgunner
10-08-2002, 06:30
Best I have heard yet .... nail on the head and all that.
Semper fi
Ship:biggun2:
lrsranger
10-08-2002, 08:52
You proved the point that you will always side with who you were our what you like. I am guessing you are an ex - Marine to call the whole marine corps the largest group of special operatives in the world. You must be kidding me. Get off your high horse. Second, all the units you stated are special groups within there branch but they do not all fall under the special operations command as seen by DOD. this was my point in my post.
TOWgunner
10-08-2002, 09:48
There is not a debate on who is the baddest. I for one am sick of that debate because it is lame. Here is a link to special operations .com
http://www.specialoperations.com/Units/military.htm
This will help in our discussion. Special operations is a label given to special units. But to get this label means nothing. The debate could rage for days on the SEAL's do this and Rangers do that. You are always going to be partial to the service and the unit you are/were with. There will always be mutal respect between services as well as this debate we are having.
The debate will always rage between the Army and Marines....both have had their share of days to shine as well as dark days.
We can agree to disagree because this debate is not winable
Sandles2Sidearm
10-08-2002, 12:20
IRS Ranger: first of all all Marines are FORMER Marines there is no such thing as an EX-Marine.
Second: no I am not a Former Marine have yet to finish college, but upon graduation I tentatively plan to go to OCS or OSS<---Marine version of OCS. Perhaps the Airforce like the rest of my family, but that is not the point...
Look into the history of the Marine Corps. Remember they are a division of the Navy and during their commission they were created as a Quasi Special Forces type unit. Think Expeditionary Units, think Laos, think Kuwait, think any number of books on the subject and you will understand(Maybe)
PS just because SOC does not list them directly under their command, does not mean they are not used as such. FOIA is not privy and does not apply to clandestine and covert action.
helo_bubba
10-08-2002, 17:11
It's been a few years now, and maybe the acronyms have changed, but I thought that the main commissioning programs were Platoon Leaders Class (PLC) and Officer Candidates Class (OCC).
Both of those programs send their candidates to Officer Candidates School (OCS), as does Marine Option NROTC. The length and number of times one goes to OCS depends on the program. PLC does two 6-week sessions, or a single 10 wk class before one's senior year. OCC does one 10 wk course for those who already have college diplomas.
BTW: Also, there is Special Operations Command, a unified command alongside Mobility Command, Space Command, etc. Then there are special operations forces, both Marines and others, which conduct unconventional warfare, but which may or may not fall under the SOCOM aegis.
My only response to this thread would be....ummm....who cares? This may be a news flash, but most Marines don't WANT to be "special" anything. That's a concern for other people - in ANY service - driven by the need for "special" distinctions: a "special" unit, "special" uniform, etc.
Being a Marine is enough, as far as I'm concerned.
k
HAVEGUNWILLTRVL
10-08-2002, 21:28
All,
This post is absolutely ridiculous. I have been following it for a while and had to comment. Who gives a rats ass. I agree with Krellum. If you have the balls to serve your country in uniform to begin with you are "SPECIAL". It was instilled in me to be a silent proffesional. "Not for fame or reward, but for simple devotion to duty". I am a Ranger, that was all I wanted to be. Ive been one my whole career and have served and trained hard to accomplish my mission. Same as a clerk,cook or a mechanic. I love the Army!! I have served side by side with Marines, Seals, and SF and they are all nothing less than proffessional at what they do. All the other services have their missions and I have mine. I am not a badass, bulletproof or will I ever proclaim to be. No one is, as my brothers in Mogadishu, Somalia quickly found out. My orders are to obey the President, and Constitution of the United States. So what ever you got bring it on.
You go G.W. Im here for ya bro! :rambo:
mikemac64
10-15-2002, 19:44
Once again, Krellum rules. God bless the United States Marine Corps. Leave our Corps just the way it is....
Semper Fi....
Nuff Said. This Thread is now closed.
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