blue for fire

[JimSpoor]

NYS V&T law was just amended: blue lights will now ONLY be displayed on volunteer fire dept members' vehicles while responding to emergency calls. My question is that in the body of the amendment it only explicitly states removing blue lights from fire apparatus( pumpers, ladders, etc.) I could not find where or if it mentioned those LE agencies that run a red/blue combination.

Although I can think of no agency that does this in NY (other than some Fed agencies) I am sure that there are some. It is also very prevalent next door in PA. Does anybody know or heard that this amendment will effect LE agencies as well?

To the Mods: Feel free to move thread if you feel another area would be more appropiate. I couldn't decide where it fit best.

Stay safe.

[firemenjobs]

Vol. should NOT have ANY lights! It's just going to kill more FF's and endanger the public. Just look at all the headlines.

ALL VOL. should drive the speed limit to the station then get in their engine and only drive 10 over (weather and conditions permiting) and ONLY if its an ALS CALL OR ONLY A CONFIRMED FIRE!
-NO BLS CALLS
-NO CUT FINGERS
- NO MINOR MVA's

Use common sense. If you want to respond faster schedule times to be at the station say 4/8/12/24/hour shifts DO NOT SPEED FROM HOME!

[CPD-Dispatcher]

Originally posted by firemenjobs
Vol. should NOT have ANY lights! It's just going to kill more FF's and endanger the public.

I have been a part of a vol Fire and Full timeEMS.
I don't see anything wrong with vol. running lights. They need to go thru some training first.


90% of the guys and girls I worked with in EMS (fulltime) was also vols ff. Okay to run with lights & siren if you are getting paid, but not okay if you are not ?

[CPD-Dispatcher]

Originally posted by Paul E. Nunis
I've always wondered how many of these POVs running high speed to the station had the same level of mechanical readiness that emergency vehicles do.
Ditto for the drivers, how many of them are EVOC certified in a high speed vehicle of the same type they own.

paul

Paul

I can only speak for my area. And also I being out of the loop for many years (so things may have changed)
However, way back when, they inpected your vehicle, and also put you in a safty driving corse.

Any way I can see both points of view.

[kenoshacop]

I agree with the posts about no lights/sirens in POV's. I'm sick and tired of seeing the volunteers around here running balls out in their big pickup trucks or cars with a puny little red rotating light on the dashboard! We have enough trouble getting people to yield to fully marked squad cars/ambulances/fire trucks, and these yahoos race like the Indy 500. Then again, some of the wannabes have more lights on their POV"S then we do on our squads! They should either staff the department 24/7 or not allow them in POV's! And I wonder how many of their insurance companies actually know they're running lights/siren in their POV or if insured by the town since they're "on-duty" while responding if the towns really have any idea how these people are driving!

Sorry, no offense to any of the EMS/Fire people here, it's just a very touchy subject around these parts and has been the cause of more than a few accidents over the years.

Kenoshacop

[firemenjobs]

I don't want to imply that career are better than VOL. firefighters all I am saying is NO CALL is worth going to prison for; loosing your house, family spending years in court battles.

Then when you get out of prison you will spend the rest of your life paying back the family of the person you killed AND living the rest of your life knowing you took another persons life!

REMEMBER we are in this career to save lives NOT TAKE!


TAKE THE DAMN LIGHTS OFF!

[firemenjobs]

AND YES! ALL BLS runs are low proirity

It's NOT your emergency it theirs. Trust what your dispatchers are doing. Yes they may be wrong but far and few between.

[CPD-Dispatcher]

Originally posted by AGENCY
BTW, dispatches work with the info they have, I've been dispatched to the "I cut my finger" only to arrive and find the patient's index finger is a nub and the patient is having a difficulty breathing

No Dispatchers do not work the info they have. It is the dispatchers job to get the info that is needed. If the dispatcher is working with just the info that is given, then that LAZY dispatcher needs to go find other work.


A good dispatcher would have all the info that is needed for the Police/fire/ems. Every so often (about once a year) will a dispatcher run across someone that just won't give them info.


Maybe I am being a little hard on people, but someone life is on the line.


This topic of dispatchers not gettiing the info is a big pet peeve of mine, as one of my school mates and very good friends was shot and killed after I DISPATCHED them to a call with the info that was on the run from the LAZY calltaker.


I will stop now


Sorry

[CPD-Dispatcher]

Originally posted by AGENCY
I don't mean to offend you with any comments I have about dispatchers

You have not.

[CPD-Dispatcher]

Originally posted by AGENCY
my town unfortunately is rated as having some of the lowest ranked communications division in the state. There are a few good dispatchers but for the most part, our dispatchers give us location and nature of incident. :(

That is the problem we have with Dispatching. People don't see it as they would a Police Officer or Fire Fighter job. To some it is that, JUST A JOB. Low Pay, bad hours, weekends holidays and everything else.

Being a dispatcher to me, is the same as it was when I was out on the street working as a medic. I am doing something that will help someone. I no longer am working the streets due to a knee injury I have. Even if I could do it, I think I would stick with dispatching. I love the job, I love the people I work with.
It is a shame that Towns like yours lower them to a point they don't want to pay for good help.

[CPD-Dispatcher]

Originally posted by TheGreatGonzo



What is a "BLS" run?


BLS = Basic Life Support.
ALS = Advanced Life Support


BLS calls don't need a Medic to respond.


[QUOTE]
I am not a Fireman, nor have I ever played one on TV
[B]

That was not you sleeping next to Jonny and Roy at Station 51
(I hope you remember that show)

[Birky]

Ohioguy that show still comes on Nick At Nite. But i am also old enough to remember it.

[CPD-Dispatcher]

Originally posted by Birky
But i am also old enough to remember it.


The other night we are at work, and somone started singing the 1 adam 12 theme.


One of the people looked at me and asked what the heck they were singing. I could not beleive they never heard of that show.




:rolleyes:

[Birky]

Well if somebody started singing it I probably wouldn't recognize it either. But I have seen the show.

[MrJim911]

I've seen the show several times on Nick at nite. I'd recognize the theme song too. Many of my officers in all of our towns conveniently go out at the PD on a "detail" about the time that show and others like it come on at night. My personal favorite was EMERGENCY!.

KMG365

[kevmcl]

AGENCY,

FYI - In NJ motorists DO NOT have to yield to emergency blue lights in a vols POV. They are "courtesy lights" only.



As for the dispatcher sidebar that developed here, thanks to all the good dispatchers who make our lives infinately easier. You really make a difference.

[CPD-Dispatcher]

Originally posted by kevmcl

As for the dispatcher sidebar that developed here, thanks to all the good dispatchers who make our lives infinately easier. You really make a difference.

You are WELCOME and THANK YOU ALSO

[kevmcl]

AGENCY,

I know the wording in the DOT manual. It is a little vague, but the key point is that a members private vehicle, regardless of markings, is NOT considered an emergency vehicle in a NJ court of law. It used to be in print on the back of the application for the blue light permit. I'm not certain if it's still there or not, but take a look. I am very sure of the interpretation of that law though. I tell you this not for the sake of correcting you, but so that you know when you are responding to a call, with a blue light on and in your POV, you do not have any reason to expect other motorists to make way for you. It is great when they do, and I wish all would, but do not expect it.


Stay Safe

[TANKMGA8]

Agency,

I believe what kevmcl is trying to tell you is that although the code book spells it out as you wrote it, that the courts have changed the interpetation of the law. This most usually is called "Case Law" and changes that way a written law is enforced and obeyed. Reguardless of what ever you can find to support your side, if NJ courts of law have dicided that a person's private vehicle is not considered an emergency vehicle, then that is the determining factor. I am sure from his tone of the post that kevmcl is just trying to keep you out of trouble if something should happen (like an accident) when you are responding to a call out.

[kevmcl]

AGENCY,

TANK hit the nail on the head. What I told you about how the law is interpreted in court is something I am 100% sure of. I did not make the law nor did I have any input on how it's read by a judge, therefore I will decline to debate why it's that way. Just know that it is and act accordingly when responding to calls in your POV.

As for first responder, command, and supervisors vehicles, they are considered EV's. That is why they are permitted red lights and sirens.

Have a good time while you're down here. The shore has always been a great place to be in the summer, especially for a young guy. You just have to love those girls who are down here on vacation.

Stay Safe

[ceobob]

Originally posted by Paul E. Nunis
Let me put a stop to any miscommunication or misperceptions right now.
:bounce:

1) The moderators for ALL forums are those that Bob Amaral finds to be suitable, with some input from current moderators. Their qualifications are not up for discussion. Period.
Specific complaints can be PMd directly to Bob, or possibly to another mod.



Actually....95% of people who want to become mods are voted on by the current mods. I just add them to whatever forum the current mods decide on. I am like George Bush, and the mods are like Dick Cheney. I appear to be the big cheese, but the mods are really running the show.

[CPD-Dispatcher]

Originally posted by Bob Amaral
I am like George Bush, and the mods are like Dick Cheney.


I think we are more like George Bush staff, we just tell you what to do, and you do it :)

I dont think I could handle being Dick Cheney :bounce:

[MrJim911]

I figured we were more like big oil. We just threaten Bob, if he doesn't do what we want him to do we'll stop giving him money and won't supprt his re-election efforts... ;)

[Fargo2722]

Can i nominate this last string for the "Best of 911 Job Forums"? LOL!!! :)

[DelC]

Originally posted by AGENCY
. . . Source: NJ State Drivers Manual - Chapter 4
Pull over and stop for emergency vehicles. . . First, let me say, a "State Driver’s Manual" is not a “Traffic Law Manual” that will list “State Statute Laws”. Driver’s Manuals are for the average idiot trying to learn how to drive and obtain a driver's license.

If you look up the definition of a “Emergency Vehicle” in your State Statute or Code, it will read something like it does for my state, which is listed below. With a little effort, you should be able to find the Statutes for your state on-line.

----------------------------

§ 60-610. Authorized emergency vehicle, defined.

Authorized emergency vehicle shall mean such fire department vehicles, police vehicles, and ambulances as are publicly owned and such other publicly or privately owned vehicles as are designated by the Director of Motor Vehicles.

Source: Laws 1993, LB 370, § 106
---------------

§ 60-6,114. Authorized emergency vehicles; privileges; conditions.

(1) The driver of an authorized emergency vehicle, when responding to an emergency call, when pursuing an actual or suspected violator of the law, or when responding to but not when returning from a fire alarm, may exercise the privileges set forth in this section, but subject to the conditions stated in the (State) "Rules of the Road".
(2) . . . . . .
(3) The driver of such emergency vehicle, except wreckers towing disabled vehicles, and highway maintenance vehicles and equipment may also:
(a) Proceed past a steady red indication, a flashing red indication, or a stop sign but only after slowing down as may be necessary for safe operation; and
(4) Except for such emergency vehicle operated as a police vehicle, the exemptions granted in this section to such emergency vehicle shall apply only when the driver of such vehicle, while in motion, sounds an audible signal by bell, siren, or exhaust whistle as may be reasonably necessary and when such vehicle is equipped with at least one lighted light displaying a red light visible under normal atmospheric conditions from a distance of five hundred feet to the front of such vehicle.
(5) The provisions of this section shall not relieve the driver of such emergency vehicle from the duty to drive with due regard for the safety of all persons, nor shall such provisions protect such driver from the consequences of his or her reckless disregard for the safety of others.

Source: Laws 1973, LB 45, § 8; R.S.1943, (1988), § 39-608; Laws 1993, LB 370, § 210.
---------------

§ 60-6,151. Operation of vehicles upon the approach of emergency vehicles.

(1) Upon the immediate approach of an authorized emergency vehicle which makes use of proper audible or visual signals:
(a) The driver of any other vehicle shall yield the right-of-way. . ., etc, etc.
(b) . . . .
(2) This section shall not relieve the driver of an authorized emergency vehicle from the duty to drive with due regard for the safety of all persons using the highway.

Source: Laws 1973, LB 45, § 40; R.S.1943, (1988), § 39-640; Laws 1993, LB 370, § 247.

-----------------------------------------------

Private vehicles in my state are not allowed to have an audible signal by bell, siren, or exhaust whistle, Vounteer Fireman or not.

[Dakota]

Since this has become two issues...

As for Lights - I am a Vol. FF here in Maine. Most of the Dept. has a single red rotor light, as required by Maine Law. Do most use it? Not usually. Yes the new kids that are just joining the Dept. do, as most of us did when we first got the privledge to do so. It wears off after a bit, and now it becomes a type of call as to the light will help. It comes with experience as to weather it will help or not.

As for Dispatchers - I have gone through and read, and even re-read some of the points made on the board, all taken into consideration. I was not originally going to respond to this but, the comments implying that dispatchers are lazy really bothers me. Dispatching is my full time job. We work with the info given to us. We, both dispatchers to Officers to Fire Fighters to EMS personell, are the proffesionals. The public is not. They call us because they need help. When you are trying to gather the info on the "cut finger, while they are running around trying to find towels to stop the bleeding as EMD is being performed, kids in the background, the dog barking, the patient is the one who is not calm. While we do our best to calm them down, it is not always possible, as Im sure you are well aware.
We can only do so much. We are not mind readers. We can in our own mind, ASSUME what is going on, but WE, or at least I, will not put the ASSUMED info into the airwaves. We deal with the info on hand.

Most, unfortunatly not all, Dispatchers are very competent and will give the appropriate information to give to the responding units. If you have never sat in at the dispatch center, I encourage you all to do so at it will be a eye-opening experience.

Thanks for you Time,
Dakota

- I apologize for the spelling, im just getting off the midnight shift and the brain is a little on the mush side.

[KYEMT325]

WOW...you people must have some psycho volunteers in the northeast. In Kentucky, outside of the two major cities of Lexington and Louisville...ALL YOU HAVE is Volunteers for fire departments. They are allowed red lights and sirens with permisssion from the Chief of the department or the county judge-executive of their county. They are required to have a minimum of 20 hours of emergency driver's training as mandated by the Ky Fire Commission, and MOST (not all) departments require the individual firefighter to have 20 more hours of training on their POV if they are going to respond in it to the scene or to the station.

In my 10 years of being a Volunteer Firefighter here, I do not know of ANY accidents involving volunteers in their POV's although I can't say the same about EMS and Fire Trucks, which wreck on a regular basis.

And as for the comment that all BLS runs are bull$hit runs...I'm sorry but most areas of the country aren't lucky enough to have ALS/Paramedic trucks on their calls...so most calls are staffed by BLS personnel. I've worked more than my share of shootings, stabbings, CPR in progress, etc as a BLS provider without any ALS intervention...and to suggest that we drive 55mph the 40 miles from my small hometown to the nearest hospital is ludicrous and would only lead to people throwing patients into cars and trying to drive recklessly without training to the hospital because an ambulance would be useless to the general public.

I would suggest that the emergency services community in your areas lobby the state legislature to mandate some training to your people before setting them loose on the highways, because with proper training there is nothing wrong with going code 3, signal 9, or whatever you call it, as long as they use due regard to the safety of others on the highways. Because I don't want my mom, dad, brother, sister, nephews, family, etc to die (or their house to be on the ground before the first truck arrives) because some people are afraid of lawsuits. Like I just heard the other day, if we removed all lawyers from society, maybe we could do our jobs correctly without always second-guessing everything because we don't want to be sued.

That's my 2 cents.

KYEMT325

[cowboy326911]

I am a volunteer firefighter an da 911 dispatcher therefore I believe I can respond to this forum with very good authority. First off dealing with the lights on a volunteer vehicle: 1) lights are a valuable asset but do not make the driver of that vehicle immune to the other idiots on the road. 2) lights in pov serve as an advance warning that the truck will be along shortly and to exercise more caution than normal. 3) MS state law says that a volunteer POV is considered an emergency vehicle when the volunteer is responding to an emergency or on scene of an emergency. 4) state law says that you must yield to the right for any emergency vehicle

Now on to the case of the dispatcher 1)dispatchers are not omnipotent we work with what we can get from the caller. 2) 2 reasons a dispatcher does not get enough info are a) caller is hysterical b) caller will not cooperate. 2) dispatchers are the least appreciated yet the most valuable in the emergency business. It all starts with us. For all you firemen and officers out there next time you talk to dispatch give em a word of thanks to show that you appreciate what they have to deal with.

:flame: :burnt:

[CPD-Dispatcher]

Originally posted by cowboy326911
Now on to the case of the dispatcher 1)dispatchers are not omnipotent we work with what we can get from the caller. 2) 2 reasons a dispatcher does not get enough info are a) caller is hysterical b) caller will not cooperate.

Cowboy I am not sure how long you have been dispatching, however I don't see it your way 100% . I do see that some callers do not cooperate, or they are hysterical. HOWEVER I feel that any dispatcher (if you put the time into it) can get the info from ANY caller. There may be a time or two that the caller is just to hard to deal with over the phone. The police are just around the corner and get there before you are done with what you are doing on the phone. Or it is a small department and the drive time is only a few seconds. However I have greater drive time to keep me on the phone. We handle about 3,000 to 4,000 calls in a shift. I feel if you do your job correct, you can get the info. However you need to learn how to do this, and if your department won't send you to training, then your hands are tied also. The info is out there on how to do this. I know 99% of the dispatchers are GREAT dispatchers, that 1% that feels it is just a job and it is a bother to stay on the phone to get the info. Part of the "It's just a job" this is low wages or even good wages. We have people at our department that don't want to leave bacause they make good money. It is just a paycheck to them. I feel strong about this issue as one of my very good friends was an officer and was shot and killed because the calltaker did not bother to get the info needed prior to sending him on the run. I feel it is my job to bring them men and woman home each day safe. And if it means staying on the phone that extra time to drill the information out of the caller, then that is what I need to do. It can be done, we just need to learn how to do it.

[MrJim911]

Well said OhioGuy. Verbal judo is very useful. The only callers you can't get info from are the ones who repeatedly hang up on you before you can even say anything... Of course then you can have the officer gently explain the proper use of 911... heh heh heh

[CPD-Dispatcher]

Originally posted by MrJim911
Verbal judo is very useful

That is what I was thinking of, but just could not think of it at the time I posted.

[cowboy326911]

I agree with you very much ohio and I guess I was just tired and couldn't finish writing what I was thinking. I will stay on the phone as long as it takes to get the info. Like Mr Jim said the only people you can't get the info from are the ones that repeatedly hang up after they say send police. Our policy is to send 2 officers and have the officers explain to them the penalty for abusing 911. In MS the penalty is 10 years and $10,000. I agree with you completely that if people think it is just a job then they need to leave.
:flame: :burnt:

[Sandles2Sidearm]

The distinction between BLS and ALS is great, but the fact is that reporting parties are unreliable. I would not say that we should give Ricky Rescue a dash strobe and have him respond to a call in his 1973 jaloppy.

It does mean, however, that an emergency is that and shoud be treated as such. As a victim, it would be better to have the Fire/Ambulance come too quickly on a mellow call then make the mistake of coming to slowly on an acute call.

PS
It terrifies me that there are organizations that allow for emergency response in private vehicles. LIABILITY!?