Steroids!!!

[CaptRidley]

Ok here is the deal. I have been hearing a lot of talk in my ghetto gym about who does what and where you can get it from. One of the guys that used to work at the gym has already been arrested for dealing steroids.

As I continue to keep my finger on the pulse, I'm shocked to find out that most are turning a deaf ear towards those that are dealing steroids, mainly because they know those that are using it. Many are police officers and fire fighters.

There is a new deal in the works that I'm still trying to get the exact details involved figured out. There is a trainer at the gym, the trainer will recommend people to someone else who has or is in the know of how to get steroids. There is also a doctor involved, so these steroids are actually prescribed and delivered via the mail or picked up at the pharmacy (I'm guessing here).

Now I have never done any drugs, with the exception of an occassional alcoholic beverage, we are talking New Years here. In any event I have heard that those that use steroids have tremendous mood swings, and I want to say something referred to as steroid rage. Now with this in mind why in the hell would a cop want to be using this stuff?

I'm not a LEO but I imagine that if one is involved in a shooting, a lot of tests are conducted on both the person as well as the weapon fired. I would imagine a drug test as well as BAC test to make sure that the officer was fit for duty well at least I hope so.

In any event what gives here? The common attitude around the gym, is that people know who is on the juice, but they do not want to turn in the dealer as he will in turn take down others. I say oh freaking well. But I want to know if I'm way out in left field. I have no problem calling the local DEA or USPIS office on this (USPIS in the event this stuff is being mailed).

If/when I do get on the job I know that I will not be able to turn a deaf ear, not implying that I am now. I'm just trying to figure out the best way to shed some light on this situation.

How long does Steroids remain in once system? Also is that a drug that agencies test for. I know that in the Corps it is not a drug that is tested for during a regular urinalysis.

It really makes me sick!!!
Out here!!!
Mike-D

[dmclark]

Steroid testing is not USUALLY a part of the random drug testing. HOWEVER, if you were to show up looking like the Hulk, there might be "reasonable suspicion" that you were using 'roids and someone would send you for a more specific test.

'Roids bring short term satisfaction with long term health problems. Just ask Lyle Alzado. Oh, you can't. He died from steriod complications.

[nj1118]

I HATE steroids. When I was in college, I worked at a bar, and many of the bouncers were using. WHY? To look big and intimidating. I hate to say it, but I bet a lot of LEO's do it for the same reason. It is so damn obvious when someone is using steroids vs. just working out hard. They can bench 1000 pounds but can't run a half mile without keeling over.

Juicers are usually the same idiots who you see at the gym who put 500 pounds on the bench press, do it twice, and leave.
With the exception of training for football or powerlifting, I don't know why anyone would want to be that big. Even without the side effects. Personally, I'd rather be in shape, able to run a marathon, or bang out 100 push-ups than look like a gorilla.

[ATF SAC]

Read enough posts around here and you will find that headbreaking goon is still something of the "role" model to which LE candidates aspire. Ridley, change gyms and blow the whistle. Not for nothing, you are setting yourself up for a tough poly situation. Likely to react to drug questions based on your observations and sense of confusion about what to do. Do what you would do if you were on duty and it clears up.

[Junkyard Dawg]

Do what you would do if you were on duty and it clears up.

Ridley,

I'd take ATF SAC's advice. Get the HELL OUT of that gym. It's ghetto to begin with so what are you losing? Further, if roids are so rampant that it's common gossip at the gym, you don't want to be there as a potential DEA Agent. Maybe a quick word to the local DEA office will suffice.

[dmclark]

CPT Ridley: Call the local DEA office and ask to speak to the Duty Agent. Tell him/her you want to report steroid sales at the gym and lay it out. Give them your name and contact information, that way there is a permanent record of your furnishing the info and THEN GET OUT OF THAT GYM and I mean ASAP.

You want to be able to state that you left the gym when you became aware of the drug abuse. DM

[five-oh]

Consider your actions carefully. If you dime them out and they get busted whats going to happen when you see them at a later date? Maybe it'll be after you are leaving a late movie one night with your date. People talk and don't appreciate when they get arrested because someone snitched. (Especially if you ruin a cops career) Why do you think Cops have confidential personal information? Steroids are everywhere and very easy to get. Since you are not yet in the job you need to weigh the risks vs. the benefits. You won't get hired any easier because you turned in some weightlifters and their doc.

There is nothing to worry about as far as the poly goes. I don't remember them asking me "Did you ever do your own investigating and discover someone is taking illegal drugs?" or "Did you ever hear a drug deal going down and not turn the involved parties in? Even if they did you could still answer the question truthfully.

Put headphones on and get your workout in and leave. After you get the job you'll have plenty of time to save the world from steroids.

[Jdiablo]

CPT Ridley.

I don't agree at all with five-oh's post. "Especially if you ruin a cops career" I definatley don't agree with this. You know as well as anyone else that steroids are illegal, if they are doing them, then they deserve whatever they get. LE officers should be role models, on and off duty.

It may not be your DUTY right now to turn the guys in, I doubt that a Marine would turn his back on something like this.

I'm sure you will do the right thing. Go with ATF SAC and dmclark.....

J,

[dmclark]

five-oh. I strongly disagree with the "go-along to get-along" advice. It's attitudes like that that have caused the steriod situation to flourish. If you want to carry a badge, stand up and be counted. And if a cop is using 'roids, the cuffs work for him too.

As far as the poly goes "Have you ever frequented places where drugs were used" is a classic question to use. That's just what this "gym" is.

The cavelier comment of "saving the world from steriods" makes you part of the problem, not part of the solution, in my opinion.

I'd ask you to reconsider your "advice" in this LAW ENFORCEMENT forum. Steroids are illegal and a violation of most local, state and federal narcotics laws.

Ridley...get OUT of that gym.

[DoD NucE]

Capt. you heard it from the Big Dawgs of the forum. I certainly can't add anything to wha they have said as far as advice, but I can tell you that I made the decision to turn my back to some friends a number of years ago. While tough at the time, I never regretted that choice, and I am where I am because of it. I'd say, drop a tip and get the heck out of that gym as fast as you can. If there is anyone who knows the answer to this question I would say it is dmclark, having retired from DEA. If he says to spill the beans, you gotta spill the beans. Good luck man, I know you'll make the right choice.

[ATF SAC]

I hear five-oh and I don't disrespect where he is coming from. There is a line you cross, not when you get the badge, but when you go for it. I have put cops in prison and dealt with cops in trouble and not all of them were strangers or people I didn't like.

When you decide to go for it, you make a decision, mostly to be the person who stands up for and for. It's often much harder than we discuss, but to stand carries a price. Sometimes it is the price of absorbing threat that would deter our best friends and family outside the business. Sometimes it is threat that may come to them because of their association with you. Be maybe ok to make it once and be done with it, but you get to make it alot.

What happened to me or DM, or what we share, is not about how cool we are and were (although DM is way cool) but about sharing with you the path we walked and onto which at least your toes are touching.

So this story about me. I was in England recently dealing with a security group that we contract to support our operations. Great guys, retired Assistant Chief Constables and ranking UK officers (ASACs and Deputy Chief types). Fun with dealing with cops is they do cop stuff to you, so caught the gentle comment at dinner that "You (me) had a very public career." Meant they had surfed the net and found that I have been out there a long time. Front guy, spokesman, flac, but also a senior operator. Could not tell you how much an honor it was not to be on TV or last weeks Newsweek (which I was) but to be able to somewhat confidently represent the folks I served with and maybe the profession a little. Did that for over 10 years, given events and still do from time to time. Problem is I have a wife and daughters and friends and they are pretty accessible as connected to me, given that I am not Jack Smith. Gun Control, Right and Left wing loonies, IRA, Fuqra, Waco, OK City, WTC Bombing, Assault Weapons, Jamaican Posses, Brady Bill, Rudolph Case, Abortion clinic violence. Some alcohol and tobacco controversies. Got ATFs name on them and often mine. Every time I front, I think of the folks I love and have affection for and realize I have put them on front street with me.
Be ok if I was a personal glory hound, but think folks that know me well would say it is a little surprising because Jack is a pretty contained and private person. So why and why should you do what DM and I suggest? Because I know DMs record and where he went to do his duty, and he knows mine and there is only one way to move the football and that is never to turn your back on the incessant call to serve.

Does that mean I don't sometimes reflect on one daughter's marriage and that it eases me that she lives under a different name? Or that I look forward to the same for another? or that I truly love the woman who knows the price she pays so that I can pay the price I pay to serve? Here is the world I know, for over 10 years, my home is on a special response list for the police departments where I have lived. I did not ask for that, they asked me for that. In that time, agents reporting to me took down officers from those departments. Support never varied. Kind of thing that can make you love this job at its highest functions while worrying about the things that caused you to take down people.

Somebody is always going to threaten to come after you, and some or their associates mean it. F 'em. If they aren't good I am very good and if they are good enough, those who I served with or who serve after me will spare no effort. And this too, is what you are applying for. DM in Mexico after Kiki was murdered and the other mod's have lived real stuff and real danger and real personal challenge and pain. We call on you to join us. But if you do, we are not looking for equivicators or debaters. We are looking for men and woman who will hold no matter what the threat.

[netman1019]

ATFSAC,

Just was surfing the forums and read your post. All I can say is, thank you. VERY thoughtful, made me think a lot about what I'm pursuing (federal LE). I want to pursue it even more, knowing folks like you and DM were there. I truly appreciate the experience and what you guys share with us on here. It means A LOT (DM, Krellum, Gonzo, et al.)

:)

Thanks again,

Jim

[CaptRidley]

Wow.

Check this out and I'll try to be short because I have to go and get my work out on to stay ready for that DEA PTT.

I'm at the end of my rope as far as the application is concerned.

When I moved from NC to FL I made contact with the local DEA office, to notify the DIV office that I had moved and have my file transferred.

While there, I handed in a letter. The Agent that came out and met me was very nice. I told him who I was and he said that he would give the paper work to the POC I had been provided by the Wilmington, NC office.

In that split second where he opened the door, I saw a familiar face. A face I saw on a BAT class graduation/training video, and I said cool it is nice to see that this guy is working here.

Well, I saw this guy in the same ghetto gym on four separate occassions, and around the fith time I mustered up anough courage to ask him if he was the one I saw at the office.

Longer story even shorter. He is also a Marine and now I'm house sitting for him while his family is visiting with him in DC at the language school. And we speak at least once a day so he is aware of what I know or have heard.

As far as the ghetto aspect of the gym is concerned, it is not as big as the other gyms in the chain and is mainly used to pay the rent for the other gyms. I work out early enough in the morning so hardly anyone is in there.

Also whether or not I'm on the job or not I can not consciously walk away from this issue, and if I am on the job it will be even worse.

As far as coming from the movies is concerned, that is not in my hands. One guy already has been arrested, and word is the only reason he did get arrested, is because he screwed over some cops he was selling this trash to in the first place.

Thank you as always to DM and ATF, and yes even you Five-Oh. This being an open forum I do appreciate all the advice and opinions. Also I'm not out to ruin anyones carreer, they do that themselves, drinking and driving, doing drugs on the job, etc, etc it is only a matter of time before a situation like this gets out of hand. What if they get into an arguement at the gym, start a shoot out etc, etc. Or worse a cop on roids and in his rage beats up or shoots a traffic violator.

If it is illegal there is nothing you can say to justify the use by anyone to me, especially not a sworn police officer.

Out here!!!
Mike-D

[five-oh]

You are foolish if you think that steroids aren't in every public gym. Calling the DEA because some local gym rats are juicing won't help you get any job. I have seen this happen first hand in this very same scenario with a guy I went to high school with. He WAS a cop. Now he's one of the most hated members in his peer group in town. He has to be careful of his surroundings at all times. Ask him now if it was worth putting three people on probation (1yr unsupervised) for 'roids.

Crime is everywhere, all of the time and trying to stop it all is futile. I urge you to consider YOUR advice DM about advising persons interested in law enforcement in taking action in business they could not possibly consider their results of their actions. This is MY opinion based on my training and life experiences just as your opinions are based on yours. Let the reader decide.

[dmclark]

.Crime is everywhere, all of the time and trying to stop it all is futile

Gee, you carry a badge? Why bother? It's all "futile"??

The "head in the sand" approach will always come back and bite you in the ass. I don't agree with your attiude or your ethics. If you want to take this to the PM level, let's do that

[five-oh]

***EDITED FOR CONTENT*** ---Gonzo---

The only point I was making is people should carefully consider the reasons and the results of getting in the middle of an illegal drug operation. If someone is able to eavesdrop on steroid dealing you can be sure those involved are very aware of who is around while they discuss their trade. If you need to make a call to the authorities then do it but I don't see the need to change your gym. When the question comes up on your polygraph answer it truthfully. "Yes I attended a public gym where I overheard persons discussing steroids." It is not possible to not frequent a place where drugs are used. Ask any public high schooler today, or for that matter anyone in college. If this were the case then everyone who attends a NCAA Div I football school, as I did, needs to withdraw because many of the players juice. How many of you know a 16 year old dating an 18 year old? Well if they are having sex, thats rape, better call the authorities. Do you want to to know what happens when you call in a drunk driver on your cell phone? Next to nothing. A Be on the Lookout gets broadcast. I probably hear twenty or thirty on the radio on a weekend night. How come the police don't raid a grateful dead concert? There is crime everywhere, all of the time.

So theres my point, don't quit your gym. No matter where you go there will be crime. Unless someone's life is in immediate danger you need to weigh the benefits with the risks. Thats not burying your head in the sand it's being street smart. Those doing the 'roids will eventually get theirs. Wether it be trouble with the law or problems with their health.

Now that's my personal opinion if you don't agree with me then cast my advice aside. However don't take a "I know more than you attitude." As I said before let the reader decide.

[CPD-Dispatcher]

Originally posted by five-oh
Crime is everywhere, all of the time and trying to stop it all is futile.

So if you are off duty and see a Felony happen, do you look the other way? Just wondering !

[Junkyard Dawg]

five-oh,

I don't know. I'm very confused by your logic. How I read your posts, they seem to suggest that you advocate following the path of least resistance as a cop. Police officers swear an oath to uphold the law no matter the situation. They don't swear an oath that involves choosing.

Life as a cop is not easy and full of dilemnas (spelling?), but then again, no one forces people to become cops.

[five-oh]

Ohioguy, you should talk to the cop who tried to break up the domestic violence incident at his neighbors house. Oh, I forgot, he's dead (by his own gun.) Tried to be supercop and flash his badge and get immediate compliance.

Time and a place for everything. He should have called for an on duty officer and waited. I think every street cop wants to go home at the end of the day so I don't think it's called the path of least resistance its called being smart. There comes a day for every bad guy. If you don't get him today you can get him tomorrow. Reckless and gung ho gets you hurt and/or killed. The point I have been trying to get across from the start.

[krellum]

I don't think anyone's talking about driving around in bad neighborhoods on your off-duty time, looking for trouble and being "supercop,", but when something happens in your presence, I think something needs to be done. Whatever that "something" may be will depend on the situation, of course, but ignoring an incident certainly isn't the solution, in my opinion.

Personally, I don't think I'd be worth a sh%$ to MYSELF if I sat at home and played it "smart," not intervening while my neighbor beat up on his wife. Don't think I could look at myself in the mirror for letting something like that slide.

It's sad that there are tragic consequences (like that cop eating his own gun), but there are consequences to EVERYTHING, and as LE officers, we ACCEPT more of them when we take our oath. I'm sure he (the cop) accepted the same.

I can certainly see where everyone is coming from, but that's just my opinion.


k (<---as always, pretty f#$%ing humbled by a couple of these posters before me in this thread - thanks guys!)

[SBT-29]

With all due respect for CaptR. he is not a law enforcement officer right now, I have to agree with five oh on this one.

You can't go into a local gym these days without seeing someone on steroids, but they don't go around saying it.

Also I know of law enforcement agencies that get mad because they think your being Magnum Pi or some stupid crap like that if you call things in on your own.

Plus there is a whole lot of worse things you could be reporting other than steroid abuse. Yes maybe its a felony I don't think five oh is trying to down play the seriousness of it but some times you just have to relax.

dmclark: I don't think you can take that attitude with five-oh when he mentioned trying to stop all the crime and that its futile, you were with DEA for how long and steroids are still a huge problem, Why don't you talk to yourself about stopping all the crime if you think you can do it.

[krellum]

You can't go into a local gym these days without seeing someone on steroids, but they don't go around saying it.
Deciding whether or not to report something has absolutely nothing to do with whether the reporting person is a LE officer or not. Do we only work cases that are referred to us by other cops? No. I think you need to read the thread again. No one said anything about calling the police because you simply THINK the guys may be on steroids. Captain Ridley was talking about actual conversations which he witnessed, with the names of steroid dealers mentioned - in my handy-dandy book of LE 101, we call that a "clue." I don't think the argument is about whether it's WORTH reporting (uh...if it's a felony, I think it merits reporting, don't you?), but whether it's appropriate to do so, whether it will affect the reporting person's place in the hiring process for another agency, etc.

Also I know of law enforcement agencies that get mad because they think your being Magnum Pi or some stupid crap like that if you call things in on your own.

How else are you supposed to report something? In my time dealing with the public, I have always encouraged people to report anything and EVERYTHING they deem to be suspicious or illegal. It's then MY job to sort it out - it's what I get paid for. I've never assumed that a citizen calling me to report suspicious activity was acting like "Magnum PI." I don't know what state/city you live in , but if the the police aren't willing to do that or "get mad" at the citizenry for doing what they think is right, then I'd consider moving. That's a ridiculous attitude for a LE agency to have, in my opinion. Sure, you get complaints which have no merit, and you might get one legit complaint for every 100 that are called in, but like I said, it's what we get paid for.

Plus there is a whole lot of worse things you could be reporting other than steroid abuse.

Like what? You can't report it if you don't see it. If all you see is steroid abuse, what should you do - keep it to yourself and wait for some info on a murder or a rape to come along, then report THAT instead (because it's "worse")?

Like you, I also see what Five-oh is talking about, but I don't think it's up to Joe Citizen to decide whether a crime is important enough to report - if it's illegal, report it and let the police do their job.

Why don't you talk to yourself about stopping all the crime if you think you can do it.

I have no idea what this last sentence means.

k

[DoD NucE]

I think what this argument essentially boils down to is the lack of desire to turn in one's fellow LEO for a crime that is perceived to not be a big deal. In my opinion this is the same attitude that has allowed steroid use to be perpetuated. Everyone's on the juice, so it's no big deal, I don't want to turn in a brother officer for doing this minor infraction. For those that believe that I wonder how you would feel if you witnessed a brother LEO smoking pot? I think doing nothing makes the problem worse in the long run. Sure I know that one can never clean up all the crime, but I sure want to make a valiant effort to try. It may not make me the most popular guy on the job when I get there but I'm not trying to get on the job to make friends. Sure there are cops that have to look over their shoulders, but maybe if everyone held their brother LEO's to such a high standard then those bad apples would be too afraid to take action for fear of going to prison by another LEO that doesn't just watch it happen. I respect five-oh's opinion here, but I disagree with it. If we breed a culture of zero tolerance then we go a long way to aleviate the problem.

As for the capt, I know the kind of guy he is, so I know he'll do the right thing. And I absolutely believe that not every gym out there has dealers dealing the juice so consicuously. When someone knowingly allows themselves to remain in a place where illegal acts are perpetrated in front of them, that goes to an issue of morality. If you know what is going on is wrong and you still allow yourself to go there, than maybe you don't show a high enough moral standard to be trusted with the nation's secrets or to uphold its laws. I believe that is the point that dmclark is trying to make. LEO's must be above reproach when they testify in an effort to put Joe Scumbag behind bars. If an LEO knowingly hangs out someplace where illegal acts are taking place, that goes a long way to hurt that LEO's character on the witness stand. At least it does in my book. I understand that the first rule of LE is to go home every night five-oh, but when you accept the job, you accept the higher risks that go with it. I just don't see how the capt. (who is so close to being an LEO as well as being a marine) could walk away from this situation when it is so obvious to him. I don't think he will either.

[dmclark]

SBT-29: First, CPT Ridley did not mention one person using steroids. He mentioned a trainer SELLING steriods and a "deal" at the gym for those that wanted it. Big difference.

Second, steroids were never part of any DEA enforcement program until the late 80s and wasn't a target enforcement priority at the time. It still isn't, unless we're talking millions of doseage units.

Your wise-ass remark indicates just where your coming from and I won't dignify your comments. If you want, PM me and I'll discuss it with you. With 27 years on the street, I don't have to defend my law enforcement actions with the likes of you. I've probably got more time on the street than you've got years.

Drop it, because I'm done with you.

[ATF SAC]

Love it when y'all get DM in a snit, as he does when you do me. More exciting than guessing whether there will be raisins in the oatmeal at the Old Agent's Home. Nobody here advised pulling your OD piece at the gym and yelling, stick 'em up or going nyah, nyah, I'm telling. What was advised was seperate yourself from a bad situation and letting the appropriate authorities know, with some specificity of detail, what you heard. It's not entirely wrong to say "Mind your own business" if that means give it to the folks responsible and go on about your own. If it means, "Ignore it, its all too much," well you can avoid trouble on the job too, it's just not what you are supposed to do. Of course DM and I were born supervisors and never had to do nothing, so what do we know?

Maybe better to cultivate a little humility. Not every law I ever enforced or person I booked met my high personal standard of right and wrong. Figured I played a role in a system that worked ok and I ought to keep my part of the bargain. Not with insane bravado, like "Honey, you and the kids duck down, believe I'm going to start me a gunfight," but with some appreciation of the way things get done. This I do know, nothing ever got done by anybody who could talk themselves into not doing anything.

[CaptRidley]

Drugs and Law Enforcement
Questions and comments concerning drugs and law enforcement can be posted in this forum. *WARNING* Opinions in this Forum may be offensive to some people.

Wow, now I see what is meant by this warning.

Again thank you all for posting. I didn't post to get anyones permission to do what I already knew I was going to do. I just wanted to know if anyone else had a problem with what I saw/heard.

I have never seen DM in action, and while it was fun and exciting to watch, I do apologize that it had to come to that.

Drug use will always be a problem with/for me, regardless of the fact if I get that DEA call or not. This has a different twist to it, as LEOs are supposedly some of the customers which is why no one has ever reported anything before, and that in itself has elevated the problem to a higher level.

Ok, lets say LEO going to my ghetto gym is on the juice and wants to go from local to FLE, can he do so. Well he probably can but not with an agency that has a poly. During the last x years have you ever done etc, etc, and more importantly have you have done drug x while serving as a LEO, etc, etc.

To me it's like having your cake and eating it too. Your a cop when you are on duty, but once you go 10-42 you start breaking the same rules/regulations you were sworn to uphold. It's like going to rape counseling, only to find out that your counselor is a serial rapist himself (ok a bit extreme but you know what I mean).

I have not had the time to breath with this new dispatching job, but I'm starting to get the hang of it. In any event, as was mentioned by some of the posters in here, it is not in my nature to just walk away and pretend I do not know what may be going on. I'm not going to put on my flight suit and Lara Croft gun belt either, and solve this thing myself, but it will be mentioned to the proper authorities, starting with my friend who used to work out at the gym as well, and he can relay it back to the office, in any event my part will be done at that point and will have upheld my ethos as a Marine Corps Officer, but more importantly my own personal beliefs and remain Semper Fi (Always Faithfull) to them both. A Marine Officer (any Officer for that matter) with a tainted Integrity is a damaged Officer, and that applies to everyone else in Law Enforcement as well.

There used to be a commercial, a drug use commercial at that, where a father catches his teenage son smoking weed, and he asked him where/how did he learn to do this and the Son replied "I learned it from you, from you Dad"

Discipline, the Marine Corps Bootcamp definition, as explained to me back in August of 1990. "Instant, obedient, willingness to order" In bootcamp you have recruits that act like the perfect recruit when the DI's are on deck or around, but as soon as they go away, there true colors come out, that is when discipline is defined as "doing the right thing, for the right reason, all of the time, and not just when someone is watching you"

I can go on and on like with this, but I think we all get the gist of it but here is one more, I couldn't resist.

Trooper Ridley (or someone with my integrity) makes a routine traffic stop, which leads to possible drug bust. Remove the subject out of the etc, etc, etc, while hand cuffed, he says I have 1 million dollars in the trunk of the car, I'll give you half if you let me go.

Trooper X (someone with a not so, how do you say, a clear picture of what integrity really is) same scenario as above. Who will add additional charges to the drug arrest and who will not, or better yet who will think twice about it and who will not.

There used to be a mock scenario that was played on board Camp Lejeune, where you would have a couple (female in civilian attire, and a male in uniform) argueing in front of the ATM machine, just to see how long it would take for some to say something. The study revealed that most Marines, junior and seniors alike would turn a deaf ear and "mind their own business" Now ask yourself this, how would you feel if you were among those that decided to mind their own business, and turned on the 10 o'clock news and saw that the the female was killed, and the Marine took his own life afterwards.

We can't always make a difference, but you will never know unless you keep trying to make a difference, and to me, that is what being in Law Enforcement is all about, and if I'm wrong, please let me know, so that I can terminate all my applications and go back on active duty, or perhaps find something else in the corporate world, and just chase the mighty dollar.

Out here!!!
Mike-D

[Junkyard Dawg]

Ridley,

The $60,000 question. Have you left the "ghetto gym"? If not, why not?

[CaptRidley]

Still at the gym.

Also, I spoke to my partner, he said the local office would not get directly involved and that it would more than likely be turned over to Diversion.

Out here!!!
Mike-D

[dmclark]

That may not be the case at all. It depends on the potential defendants and volume of distribution operaton. Interesting to see you're still playing with fire. DM

[K9 Police]

Originally posted by CaptRidley
[b]Trooper Ridley (or someone with my integrity) makes a routine traffic stop, which leads to possible drug bust.

There is never a routine traffic stop. I understand your point, but everytime I hear "routine" it brings back all those videos we saw of stops where officers got hurt or killed. One of the many things that I took with me from the academy days.

Just my .02

K9

[Minotaur]

You'll be hard-pressed to find a "hardcore gym" in which AAS are not present. Perhaps you should look for a more fitness oriented facility.

There is so much misinformation and hyperbole about the perceived pernicious effects of AAS I don't know where to start. But the following are some interesting thoughts:

Anabolic-androgenic steroids (AAS) were not controlled until President George H Bush signed the ASCA into law in1991. The Congressional transcripts indicate that the sole reason to control AAS was to protect the image of professional sports, and NOT the health risks. The DEA and FDA experts, as well as Charles Yesalis of Penn State, testified AGAINST controlled status for AAS. Sapienza of the the DEA believed that controlled status was appropriate for addictive drugs with a psychotropic effect.

So-called "roid rage" is largely a myth. There are no scientific studies to substantiate it. However, anecdotally, if one tends to be a hothead, higher levels of androgens could posssibly exacerbate that tendency.

Lyle Alzado died of a brain lymphoma commonly associated with the AIDS virus. The type of lymphoma he died from has not been causally linked to the use of AAS. The only support for this contention were the dying declarations of Alzado who was rumored to be covering-up his prior homosexual activity. High doses of oral 17 alpha-alkylated AAS (oxymetholone, commonly referred to by the trade name "Anadrol") are hepatotoxic and have been causally linked to peliosis hepatis and liver cancer.

While AAS are schedule III controlled substances, they may be legally prescribed for males over for hormone replacement therapy to treat hypogonadism.

[ATF SAC]

Let's look at your continued attendance at the gym in another way. You are pumping iron when DEA, PD Narcotics or IA busts in. You get your ass interviewed and a report gets filed that says:

a) Juice? Don't know nothin'
b) I'm in my Hamlet period, I was just working out if I should call you guys.
c) 'bout damn time, nuff juice here to make the Hulk look like a 90 pound weakling.
d) Shit, I was hoping to get on with DEA and I was saving this for myself.

time passes and a BI stops by your neighborhood cop shop and asks "Hey what you got on Bosco." d) is actually the worst since the locals will kid their DEA buds about the splendid applicant they met on their last bust.

How you loving it so far. What you want is a nice simple report in the system saying I believe officers from X are buying and using juice at Mr. Teeny Tiny's. Then when you crank the poly, you have a great documentable answer that will see you through.

You're a good solid guy who wants to be a Fed; let's tend to your self interest if not the issues of right or wrong.

By the by, my brother Mr. Clark made an excellent low key point. It is not interesting that you still go there; keep it up and we will worry more about the psych eval than the BI. Folks who think we miss stuff, miss the point. We don't miss much but sometimes it is a bigger deal to you than to us so we just move on by it. Thus, there is always the story of X who did like bad stuff and got by. Problem is the legend factor, X is crap so gets exaggerated in the telling. DM and I and others here have actually seen everything and would advise you to recognize that the folks who actually have made selections and reviewed BIs and sat on decision panels about who gets hired and who does not might actually mean what we say when we say it. We got no time for how it ought to be, how it is filled our days enough.

[dmclark]

Minotaur: I strongly disagree with you and believe that you minimize a most serious problem.

Note this info from the National Institute on Drug Abuse (NIDA)

" Anabolic steroid abuse has been associated with a wide range of adverse side effects ranging from some that are physically unattractive, such as acne and breast development in men, to others that are life threatening, such as heart attacks and liver cancer. Most are reversible if the abuser stops taking the drugs, but some are permanent.

Most data on the long-term effects of anabolic steroids on humans come from case reports rather than formal epidemiological studies. From the case reports, the incidence of life-threatening effects appears to be low, but serious adverse effects may be under-recognized or under-reported. Data from animal studies seem to support this possibility. One study found that exposing male mice for one-fifth of their lifespan to steroid doses comparable to those taken by human athletes caused a high percentage of premature deaths.

Hormonal system

Steroid abuse disrupts the normal production of hormones in the body, causing both reversible and irreversible changes. Changes that can be reversed include reduced sperm production and shrinking of the testicles (testicular atrophy). Irreversible changes include male-pattern baldness and breast development (gynecomastia). In one study of male bodybuilders, more than half had testicular atrophy, and more than half had gynecomastia. Gynecomastia is thought to occur due to the disruption of normal hormone balance. In the female body, anabolic steroids cause masculinization. Breast size and body fat decrease, the skin becomes coarse, the clitoris enlarges, and the voice deepens. Women may experience excessive growth of body hair but lose scalp hair. With continued administration of steroids, some of these effects are irreversible.

Musculoskeletal system

Rising levels of testosterone and other sex hormones normally trigger the growth spurt that occurs during puberty and adolescence. Subsequently, when these hormones reach certain levels, they signal the bones to stop growing, locking a person into his or her maximum height.

When a child or adolescent takes anabolic steroids, the resulting artificially high sex hormone levels can signal the bones to stop growing sooner than they normally would have done.

Cardiovascular system

Steroid abuse has been associated with cardiovascular diseases (CVD), including heart attacks and strokes, even in athletes younger than 30. Steroids contribute to the development of CVD, partly by changing the levels of lipoproteins that carry cholesterol in the blood. Steroids, particularly the oral types, increase the level of low-density lipoprotein (LDL) and decrease the level of high-density lipoprotein (HDL). High LDL and low HDL levels increase the risk of atherosclerosis, a condition in which fatty substances are deposited inside arteries and disrupt blood flow. If blood is prevented from reaching the heart, the result can be a heart attack. If blood is prevented from reaching the brain, the result can be a stroke.

Steroids also increase the risk that blood clots will form in blood vessels, potentially disrupting blood flow and damaging the heart muscle so that it does not pump blood effectively.

Liver

Steroid abuse has been associated with liver tumors and a rare condition called peliosis hepatis, in which blood-filled cysts form in the liver. Both the tumors and the cysts sometimes rupture, causing internal bleeding.

Skin

Steroid abuse can cause acne, cysts, and oily hair and skin.

Infection

Many abusers who inject anabolic steroids use nonsterile injection techniques or share contaminated needles with other abusers. In addition, some steroid preparations are manufactured illegally under non-sterile conditions. These factors put abusers at risk for acquiring life-threatening viral infections, such as HIV and hepatitis B and C. Abusers also can develop infective endocarditis, a bacterial illness that causes a potentially fatal inflammation of the inner lining of the heart. Bacterial infections also can cause pain and abscess formation at injection sites."

"Perceived" issues? "Hyperbole"???? I think not. You minimize a serious health issue associated with steroid abuse in this country.

[Minotaur]

Before I create the wrong impression, I should emphasize that I'm not in favor of otherwise healthy males using anabolics to enhance performance, especially teens. In fact, when I was competing, I despised cheaters who would juice and then compete in drug-free meets. Especially when there was a plethora of associations that didn't drug test. I should add that I passed every urinalysis and poly administered at meets.

Moreover, I don't wish to create the impression that AAS are not dangerous if misused. They are powerful pharmceuticals which can cause a number of undesirable side-effects if not handled properly by responsible, knowledgeable, adult males.

In any event, I'm not familiar with the NIDA. I'd like to see some of the resources that they relied upon on preparing that report. I always cringe at the "Reefer Madness" approach to educate person about the dangers of AAS.

I spent all last summer holed-up in my friend Rick Collins' office working with him on the health risk chapter of LEGAL MUSCLE (www.steroidlaw.com). Hours upon hours were spent on Medline as well as consulting with experts. Rick even spoke with the DEA's expert, Sapienza (can't recall his first name). I don't have the chapter on disc; perhaps I can have Rick e-mail the chapter and I can post it on the board with references.

The gyno problem is really more cosmetic than anything else. It's the result of excess androgens aromatizing to the female hormone estradiol. Yes, men can develop female breast tissue. Not the ridiculous rack that Meatloaf's character sported in the movie "Fight Club," but an embarrassing and unsightly condition nonetheless.

The cardio problem has been debunked in a recent study. Weight-lifting in an of itself seems to cause thickening of the left ventricle, regardless of the use of AAS.

The HPTA axis can most certainly be affected by exogenous androgen adminsitration. In fact, long-term adminstration can permanently shut-down the axis whereby the athlete would then have to be on HRT (hormone replacement therapy) for life.

All hepatotoxic conditions have been most certainly causally linked, in peer reviewed studies, to the abuse of 17 alpha-alkylated (oral) AAS. There is no causal link to any brain lymphomas or other cancers.

Slobs who reuse syringes, use unsanitary methods in intramuscular administration and/or use unsterile designer or counterfeit AAS can develop an abscess at the injection site. Worst case scenarios can involve hepatitis A, B or the incurable C.

Some professional, high-end amateur and recreational bodybuilders use ridiculous doses in the order of one gram or more of test per week, among other things. Interestingly, the number of illnesses and fatalities are few and far between and have more often occurred from the use of DNP, insulin (Mohammad Benazizza), Cytadren (Andreas Munzer), and Hgh (Dennis Newman). Ironically, none of those drugs are controlled.

[CaptRidley]

Originally posted by K9 Police
There is never a routine traffic stop. I understand your point, but everytime I hear "routine" it brings back all those videos we saw of stops where officers got hurt or killed. One of the many things that I took with me from the academy days.

Just my .02

K9

Sorry did not mean to strike a nerve, but I also know/understand what you mean!!!

As for the gym I have a one year contract with them, that will expire in October.

I'm fairly positive that this being South Florida, one will run into similar problems at other gyms (but not all). I'm not going to extend my contract for one. I will more then likely invest in a home gym next, as this is probably the only way to stop playing with fire, that or I keep going from gym to gym, but where will it stop then. If I happen to live in a neighborhood where they are starting to sell more and more drugs, do I move and if so do I move again and again, whenever the drugs or whatever else eventually catches up to that neighborhood?

I really wish I was not included (overheard) that conversation that day. This is really bugging me!!!

I hear what you are saying ATF, trust me I do, but I feel as if I'm damned if I do, damned if I don't.

In any event thanks you all for all your comments/suggestions/advice.

Out here!!!
Mike-D

PS., I'll just run in the road (outside), and use my pull up bar at home, as well as travel the distance to the Florida Highway Patrol gym (and hope to not run into a similar problem there). I just need to go in and let the gym know that I do not want to extend my contract if not terminate it on the spot

[UncleSugar]

Mike,

You don't even need to go to the gym to quit. Just send a letter registered mail so you have proof you sent it. After you know it arrived call to remind them of the content of the letter and that the US Post has provided proof of delivery. Problem solved.

Just my 2 cents. YMMV.

[CaptRidley]

Thanks Uncle, I'm just going to call them tomorrow.

Out here!!!
Mike-D

[ATF SAC]

Way to do it, Captain. If you lived in a drug infested neighborhood you would be calling the cops and the city council to clean it up, which would look really good and you would move if they did not clean it up and would tell dea as an applicant that is a reason you want to fight the scourge of narcotics.

Again, my point is to define what is good for you and just do that.

[CaptRidley]

Originally posted by ATF SAC
Way to do it, Captain. If you lived in a drug infested neighborhood you would be calling the cops and the city council to clean it up, which would look really good and you would move if they did not clean it up and would tell dea as an applicant that is a reason you want to fight the scourge of narcotics.

Again, my point is to define what is good for you and just do that.

Thanks again ATF SAC, I never really looked at it like that.

Out here!!!
Mike-D

[Paul E. Nunis]

"There is no causal link to any brain lymphomas or other cancers."


There is however, a direct causal link between steroid use, and the body's T-cell lymphocyte production (a critical factor in AIDS like conditions), immune system supression (ditto), and brain chemistry, including adrenalin and serotonin ( stress and mood disorders).

Anyone who posits that there aren't serious negative health consequences directly associated with steroid use is as far off base as those who resort to over-dramatizing the problem.
As usual, the truth lies somewhere in the middle.

Paul

[Minotaur]

"There is however, a direct causal link between steroid use, and the body's T-cell lymphocyte production (a critical factor in AIDS like conditions), immune system supression (ditto),"


Do you have a cite to this? This is the first I've heard of AAS suppressing the immune system. In fact, oxymetholone (trade name Anadrol), one of the most potentially hepatotoxic AAS, has/is used to treat HIV patients as well as serious burn victims to prevent infection as well as increase protein synthesis and tissue regeneration when they are in this compromised state. Other potentially hepatotoxic oral AAS such as fluoxymesterone (trade name Halotestin) have been used to actually shrink estrogen-dependent breast tumors in women.

There is some anecdotal evidence that the immune system is suppressed after one discontinues a cycle of AAS. There are many progressive doctors (Michael Mooney being one), who actually use AAS and hGH to combat AIDS-related wasting. (Hengge, UR et al. Oxymetholone promotes Weight gain in patients with advanced human immunodeficiency virus (HIV-1) infection BR J Nutr 75:129-138, 1996)

I have to press my friend again for the health risks chapter of LEGAL MUSCLE. I'd like to post it to the board with all the resources used.

I know women are going to love this, but there is a study to support the contention that excess estrogen, NOT androgens is actually what causes the increased aggression which is commonly referred to as "roid rage." Finkelstein, JW, Susman E.J. Chinchilli, V.M. et al., Estrogen or testosterone increases self-reported aggressive behaviors in hypogonadal adolescents. J Clin Endocrinol Metab 82:2423-2438, 1997)

Without a doubt, AAS are powerful pharmaceuticals that can have adverse effects. What's more interesting is that there are 100 deaths and over 13,000 emergency room visits each year resulting from the use of acetaminophen (Tylenol).

regards,

[dmclark]

Yeah, but Tylenol is OTC and the majority of steroids cited are Controlled Substances.

[Minotaur]

Perhaps I was too obtuse. That was precisely what I intended to illustrate: that an OTC medication (acetaminophen), can be hepatotoxic at therpeutic doses. Prescott, L.F. Liver damage with non-narcotic aanlgesics. Med Toxicol 1 Supp (1):44 1986

[ATF SAC]

And if DM is like rude, PM me and I will make him look gentle. My friend and I spent a long time in the business and not everyone we took down was a civilian and some were aquaintances to friends. Last group of cops I worked with who had the all is futile mentality went down for robbing dope dealers because the system was not doing the right thing. I testified against them. Not surprisingly I got some pain from the schmucks but I got something entirely more valuable from the majority.

Excuse me, but outside the snappy uniforms, badges and gear, this is a job where we bring big bags of sierra into other peoples lives. What we do because it needs to be done and we are condemned, called, inspired to do it. When you get to the place where other cops tell you they will take you or your family out and you can say, "Go for it, taken better" and make it stick then you can maybe have an adult conversation with many of the mods here. I was recently bad in a post and regretted it so I will not vent the full venom I feel about the attitude expressed. If I did, I would leave this board ashamed of myself - an attitude that a profession LE officer ought to avoid at all costs, if you get my drift.

This is not repeat not a popularity contest, it is devoting yourself to an oath and to each other. Always the oath before God comes first or you are always 2nd rate.

Let me close positively, one of my great experiences was to have a group of cops I took down come to me and apologize. Not for what they had done so much as disappointing me and breaking our friendship. I told them they did a really bad thing, but I really liked them and the whole thing was both necessary and hateful.

Makes spending the retirement check seem like a good thing and maybe earned a little. Make sure you have a smidgeon of pride at the end and not just comfort today.

[CaptRidley]

Originally posted by ATF SAC
And if DM is like rude, PM me and I will make him look gentle. My friend and I spent a long time in the business and not everyone we took down was a civilian and some were aquaintances to friends. Last group of cops I worked with who had the all is futile mentality went down for robbing dope dealers because the system was not doing the right thing. I testified against them. Not surprisingly I got some pain from the schmucks but I got something entirely more valuable from the majority.

Excuse me, but outside the snappy uniforms, badges and gear, this is a job where we bring big bags of sierra into other peoples lives. What we do because it needs to be done and we are condemned, called, inspired to do it. When you get to the place where other cops tell you they will take you or your family out and you can say, "Go for it, taken better" and make it stick then you can maybe have an adult conversation with many of the mods here. I was recently bad in a post and regretted it so I will not vent the full venom I feel about the attitude expressed. If I did, I would leave this board ashamed of myself - an attitude that a profession LE officer ought to avoid at all costs, if you get my drift.

This is not repeat not a popularity contest, it is devoting yourself to an oath and to each other. Always the oath before God comes first or you are always 2nd rate.

Let me close positively, one of my great experiences was to have a group of cops I took down come to me and apologize. Not for what they had done so much as disappointing me and breaking our friendship. I told them they did a really bad thing, but I really liked them and the whole thing was both necessary and hateful.

Makes spending the retirement check seem like a good thing and maybe earned a little. Make sure you have a smidgeon of pride at the end and not just comfort today.

I would like to add this to the 911JobForums.com Historical Archive. If there no such thing make it so!!!

Well said Brother!!!

Amen to that!!!

***Oath of Enlistment*** I (state your own full name) do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and the defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to the regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God.

Or

***Oath of Office*** I (state your own full name) do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and the defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely; without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; That I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter. So help me God.

In any event no matter which oath you have taken, it ends with So help me God. I still carry both on a flash card in my wallet, for those on the spot re-enlistments, and/or promotions for SNCO's and Officers (it is customary in the Marine Corps to re-affirm the Oath at such an occasion, where it will not only serve as a reminder for the Marine being promoted, but those witnessing the promotion as well).

Semper Fi,