ICE firearms policy

[universible]

I had to bring it back up. Anyone have any news on the previously mentioned ICE firearms policy changes?

Old threads are here:

http://www.911jobforums.com/vB/showthread.php3?s=&threadid=22597&highlight=ICE
http://www.911jobforums.com/vB/showthread.php3?s=&threadid=24582&highlight=ICE
http://www.911jobforums.com/vB/showthread.php3?s=&threadid=22120&highlight=ICE

Ted

[ICEman]

Nothing new. We're still operating on our legacy agency policies at this point. I did hear some talk around the office that they're conemeplating allowing agents to carry POW's (Personally owned weapons). I'm sure if this happens there will be some strict guidelines concerning make, model, caliber, etc. If your going to FLETC anytime soon you will probably be trained with the Glock 19.

[PJM]

It is still percolating through the bureaucracy. Rumor I heard it was waiting for approval from legal. Supposedly we will be going to a 50 round qualification. Personally owned weapons from a list of major manufacturers are also supposed to be allowed. As long as the G buys the ammo I don't really care.

Stay safe,
PJM

[kb75]

With FPS in DC, we have started using the ICE qual course during firearms requal ONLY for familiarization. We are still using the FLETC PPC for actual quals.

The ICE course is fast and we are loading the mags completely, not being reminded to re-load during the course of fire. It is encumbent upon us to reload when needed. 50 rounds.

kb75

[CDD]

I haven't read the threads that were refered to, so if this is old info I apologize! Anyway from what my office was told from a "reliable source" is that the new policy will enable ICE Agents, Officers, etc... to purchase any weapon currently issued to any agency with-in DHS. Glocks, Sigs, Beretta, H&K, S&W, etc... They will have to be the exact model as issued since DHS will be providing ammo and maintainence to these weapons. My original question was could I switch from my Glock 19/26 to a Glock 23/27, and the answer was no due to no agency having parts for repair. We were also told Garcia was sick of waiting for legal and told them to get this thing approved "quickly", 2-3 years I suspect! Hopefully we hear back soon.

[Wick]

Here is the latest that I have heard from a "reliable source".

All the currently issued duty weapons will be allowed, Glock 17/19/26, H&K 40 cal, Beretta and the various S&W revolvers still floating around. Also, the Glock 22 (40 cal. full frame) will be allowed. Not sure why just the 22, I was told no 23 or 27. :o

That is the latest I have heard.

Wick

[universible]

Hmm, wonder where that leaves the FAMs...I do believe they are carrying Sig 229s in 357...then there's another rumor I heard this week about ICE buying 16,000 HK USP Compacts...not sure how trustworthy that is though...

Thanks for the update.

Ted

[Rooster5150]

Gosh, I'm a Legacy Customs FI in one of the largest offices around and I haven't heard half of these rumors!

I am pretty sure the 50 round qual course is a lock. It's gonna be similar to the old one before the switch to 30 rounds to save money. If anyone has been around long enough to remember that course. The new course is gonna be virtually the same so I am told.

The pick one from the list rumor is just that a rumor although it's getting major consideration.

The rest of the rumors like which specific models we'll be able to chose from and we will be able to chose one from any agency in DHS is news to me. Whom ever that reliable source is I'd sign him up because he must know someone on the inside.

[universible]

Originally posted by Rooster5150
The rest of the rumors like which specific models we'll be able to chose from and we will be able to chose one from any agency in DHS is news to me. Whom ever that reliable source is I'd sign him up because he must know someone on the inside.

Well, this one has been mentioned a couple times....and by some of the board's "reliable sources"...so I'll draw up the paperwork...:D :wink:

Rumors are rumors, and at this point, I've got a rubber gun as a duty weapon (actually, given its smell, its more a dootie weapon :confused: ).

Ok, I'll shut up and go to bed now.

Ted

[LE_Hopeful]

I'll add one to the "I heard..." pile.

If ICE goes to Personally Owned Weapons, your weapon still has to be inspected by the main firearms group for ICE (I forget the 4 letter name for them).

So you either buy your new gun thru the firearms group, since it will already be inspected, or you send your new gun you just bought at Joe's Gun Shop back for inspection.

[universible]

Draggin this back up, just heard today in class, the ICE firearms policy got the go ahead. Can anyone else confirm? We were told that personally owned weapons are back, off an approved list. We weren't given a copy of the email, but were told that we'd get a hard copy of the new policy soon. Sounds like what was said before, Sig (9, 40, 357) Glock (9, 40), HK (40) and a few others I can't think of...basically all the previously issued firearms from the legacy agencies in ICE.

Ted

[concord160]

Yes, the final qual course and weapons list is officially out. The course is a mixture of both the INS and USCS courses.

The weapons allowed to be carried are .40's, 9mm, .357 and .38 of the more popular frames (Glocks, Sigs, H&K, Berreta, etc.).

I believe that the new qual course was effective Jan 05...the weapons I cant remember, but it seemed like it was later this year. I know the memo is being circulated around in ccmail.

[NYer]

The Interim ICE Firearms Policy was signed by Garcia on June 11 with an implementation date of July 7, 2004. Familiarization with the new course of fire is to begin with the qualification period in in July 2004. January 1, 2005, the new course of fire will become mandatory. All ICE personnel should get a copy of the new policy via e-mail. It is also available on the DHS intranet. IMO It looks like a good policy with one exception which will probably be corrected in the near future. It was mentioned in another post which appears to have been deleted (most likely for OPSEC reasons) so I will not bring it up again.

FYI: This also includes the new Interim ICE Use of Force policy.

[PJM]

Please tell me the new use of force policy includes impact weapons... I'm glad they are returning to the personally owned weapons policy, I really didn't think they would authorize it.

~PJM

[Spawns]

All LE ICE Component Directors can autorize off duty carry except for the FPS Director. There must be an ICE legal interpretation of 40 USC 1315 that is selling us down the river. The ghosts of GSA win again! All of my optimism after leaving the GSA just got flusheddown the toilet.

Read Page 2 paragraph 5. Unbelieveable...just unbelievable...

Any ICE execs out there that can shed some light on this tragedy?

;)

[NYer]

Look at the glass as being half-full, not half-empty. :D
As I stated in another post. The policy does not specifically exempt FPS or any other ICE LE personnel from off-duty carry. The policy authorizes certain Directors to determine which of their officers may carry off-duty. The Director of Operations, who is above all operational component Directors according to the ICE Org. Chart (http://www.ice.gov/graphics/about/organization/org_chart.pdf) is authorized to approve off-duty carry and in theory, and IMO, could authorize off-duty carry for FPS and any other operational compenent LE personnel. In addition, the Asst. Secretary could authorize off-duty carry for any ICE personnel. How the "Interim" policy will be implemented is yet to be seen.

[concord160]

Interim ICE firearms policy effective on July 7, 2004...qualification course mandatory for all ICE officers/agents by January 1, 2005

For handguns:

50 Rounds

Stage 1: 1.5 yards (6 rounds)
Strong hand only from the holster--using bent elbow position

Stage 2: 3 yards (6 rounds)
emergency reload

Stage 3: 7 yards (6 rounds)
body armor drill

Stage 4: 7 yards (12 rounds)
one hand shooting--weak and strong hands w/ emergency reload

Stage 5: 15 yards (12 rounds)
2 handed shooting from the standing and kneeling positions

Stage 6: 25 yards (4 rounds)
cover barricade shooting to the right

Stage 7: 25 yards (4 rounds)
cover barricade shooting to the left

MAX score is 250..lowest is 200 (80%)

220-230: Marksman
321-240: Sharpshooter
241-249: Expert
250: Distinguished Expert

------------------

Authorized POW's (Personally Owned Weapons)

Handguns
Beretta Model 96D .40
Glock 17, 19, 26, 27
H&K USP40
Sig-Sauer P229 (Sig .357 & .40)
Sig-Sauer P239
Smith & Wesson Model 6906 (9mm)
Smith & Wesson model revolvers (.38 and .357 in J-frame variations)

Shotgun:
Remington 870 Police shotgun

Long guns
Colt AR15A1/A2
Colt SMG
FNH USA P90
H7K UMP40 SMG
H7K MP5
M-14/M-1A
M-16A1/A2
M-4
Styer Aug .223

[Junkyard Dawg]

Do new/current ICE agents have to qualify with shotguns and long guns too?

[ICEman]

Do new/current ICE agents have to qualify with shotguns and long guns too?

All agents have to quailify on a quarterly basis with any firearms that they are issued. Not all agents are issued shotguns and rifles though. It pretty much depends on the local office as to who gets what. Some larger offices may not have enough long guns for every agent to get one so they are generally assigned out to those groups who may be in need of them the most.

[universible]

Wait, so they're saying that the long guns can be personally owned?

In regards to quals, my class was the first to actually get trained on M4's at the ICE academy. We were told that they would start qual'ng people in a while (don't remember exactly when), on both shotgun and the M4's.

Ted

[CajunCop]

The only POW's allowed are addressed in the handgun list that Concord posted. NO personally owned long guns are allowed.

Did anyone else notice that the policy did not address holsters and accessories (i.e., flashlights/optics)? I guess we now have free reign as long as the accessory does alter the weapon or affect it's operation.

(I'm just throwing this out there for lagniappe.....)
I was not aware of any fed agencies still using M-14's for anything other than honor guard duties. What's up with the other long guns listed, such as the UMP's? Is some of the weapons on the long gun list a glimpse of what's to come (speaking for the special agents)? What long guns did legacy INS agents use before the merger? Inquiring minds want to know.....