View Full Version : Off-duty cuffs; or not??
Many LE agencies over the years have tightned up there off duty carry policies. In the old days, they wanted you to be pro-active and intervene to make the arrest. Now, I'm seeing more and more policies written along the lines of "self protection only; assist another LE officer; be a good witness and call 911". Thats usually how they are written. With that set of guidelines, why should I burden myself with carrying a set of handcuffs/restraining device ? Is it for looks ? Satisfy the investigating authorities of my intent ? My fellow coworkers suggest it, but I don't see why if my off duty actions are so limited. So, as of late, I just cary the gun and I.D. Educate me please.....
Sure, Id say carry them. If you are going to go with the trouble of taking your weapon off duty, bring the cuffs. You never know what type of situation will arise, and I sure know I wouldnt want to just hold someone at gunpoint for 5-10 minutes waiting for a set of cuffs, or try and hold an arm bar for that same time...though the arm bar would be more fun! Just my .02 cents and a nickle.
Kahuna5150
04-25-2004, 11:35
why should I burden myself with carrying a set of handcuffs/restraining device ? Is it for looks ? Satisfy the investigating authorities of my intent ?
I think the last part of the above quote answers your own question. I have always been told that you will be asked why you were carrying a gun off-duty. Answer will normally be because you are a LEO and may run into people that you have had to deal with before in the past in a police role that might want to hurt you. Then the next question a good defense lawyer will ask (rather say) is... "So knowing you may have to run into someone that might want to do you harm, you knew your only option would be to shoot them as you had no intent of arresting them, hence the fact you carried no cuffs".
Certainly not true, but again something that would open you up to some questions/doubts in the minds of the "average" citizen. That's another reason you should carry a less-lethal option as well (if you are carrying a firearm off duty). This is again in my OPINION only, but if you don't have a lower level of force to use (OC, Baton, Taser, etc) then you are giving a defense attorney ammo to set you up as someone who only carried a deadly force option so had no choice but to jump straight to that as opposed to using less lethal first.
Again this is my opinion. If you're going to carry a firearm off duty, your ID, badge, etc, what trouble is it to carry a set of cuffs (even flex cuffs) and a small can of OC or ASP.
Kahuna
CanineCop
04-25-2004, 11:53
I don't generally carry cuff off duty. For me the cuffs are a significant burden over the weapon and creds. I would tell the plaintiff's attorney that I was carrying for the purpose of self protection against a lethal threat and had no intention of taking anyone into custody or engaging in any other enforcement action. Also it would violate officer safety principals to approach a violent offender (the only kind I'm going to trouble myself with off duty) and cuff them without back up. They will just have to kiss pavement until the local constabulary shows up, Sorry. Of course this is just my 2 cents and I've never tested it in court. Does anybody know of an actual case where carrying the cuffs made a difference or is it just urban legend?
Good Thread, John
Certainly not true, but again something that would open you up to some questions/doubts in the minds of the "average" citizen. That's another reason you should carry a less-lethal option as well (if you are carrying a firearm off duty). This is again in my OPINION only, but if you don't have a lower level of force to use (OC, Baton, Taser, etc) then you are giving a defense attorney ammo to set you up as someone who only carried a deadly force option so had no choice but to jump straight to that as opposed to using less lethal first.
Kahuna
Keep in mind these are the same citizens that wonder why we shoot armed people who are close. More than once I've heard stories of jurors who questioned why we didn't just do a Karate kick and kick the weapon out of the suspect's hands.
I say no cuffs. You'll just be tempted to use them. Off-duty guns are last resort tools to protect the lives of yourself or others.
I've got an old dress pistol belt from Alessi that I've had for almost 20 years. I've cut a slit in the back and have carried a flex-cuff that way for almost 10 years and used it once. It's just my "condition orange" thing and I'm comfortable knowing that if I needed it, I've got it.
The only time I DID use it was when I assisted a local officer who was having some trouble cuffing two suspects and had only one set of cuffs. I still remember the look in his eye when I pulled out the flex-cuffs and helped him out!
You shouldn't let other peoples opinions determine what is best for you. If you don't want to carry a firearm off-duty, then don't. If you want some restraint device, then by all means carry it. Only you can feel comfortable with what your bringing to the party. DM
CanineCop
04-25-2004, 17:28
I ran this question by our Primary Firearms Instructor here at our port. He pointed out to me that while you shouldn't run around arresting people off duty, if you shot someone you would have a legal obligation to care for them if it were safe to do so. Our policy is to cuff "wounded" suspects so I could be seen as out of policy if I failed to render aid to my downed attacker because I could not safely do so because I had neglected to carry restraints. I had not considered this scenario, maybe it makes sense. Obviously you have to follow your dept policy in any case. CBP policy unless it's changed and they didn't tell me is issued weapon, issued ammo, and creds. They recomend cuffs and OC as well but I believe these are suggestions rather than rules. They also really pull out the stops convincing us to get a ccw permit and leave them out of it entirely.
Food For Thought, John
First thing I would say is to look at your agency policy. If it dictates that you will carry handcuffs or restraints if you are carrying a weapon, then I suggest following that policy. If it doesn't address the issue, then I guess you'll just have to figure out what works for you.
Personally, I don't see what the big deal is...you are willing to carry a gun, how much of an added burden is a set of handcuffs? Sort of like the idea of carrying the gun, if you ever find yourself needing restraints, that one occasion will probably make it worth the "burden" of having carried those cuffs around with you. Your agency's policy may be such that you shouldn't find yourself having to place cuffs on someone in an off-duty situation, but you never know...although being a good witness is the best approach, there is always the chance that you'll end up in a situation where you'll need to put someone in restraints. I guess my view on cuffs is the same as on off-duty carry in general: better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it.
Incidentally, do you carry a spare magazine? I know a lot of officers who don't while off-duty, which puzzles me more than the handcuff issue...magazine failure is the most common cause of weapon malfunctions, so why carry a gun without a spare magazine?
I carry a couple of pair of tuff ties. They don’t take up much bulk in your pocket. Or I carry a pair of normal cuffs. I am afraid I could not get the tuff ties on someone that did not want them on. I either carry the Glock 27 off duty in which case I rarely carry a spare mag. I know it may jam but it has to yet jam on the range..... I know Murphy's Law. The other carry gun is a S&W 642 in which case I carry a speed loader if I can or a speed strip.
Thanks for all the insight on the cuffs/restraining devices. Very good points. Now for the usual training advice of "always carry at least one reload for your off duty gun". Prior to my current job, I carried a five-shot snubby with an extra five rounds in a Bianchi speed strip. But now I got this large full capacity Glock 17 that is the only authorized off duty weapon. Thats a total of 18 rounds on immediate tap if you count the one in the pipe. Do you really think that I need to carry an extra 17 round mag for this set up ?? I've never had a mag malfuction with this gun yet. Please educate me.
CanineCop
04-26-2004, 11:45
Prevailing wisdom is that you should carry a spare mag as part of the drill to clear feed jams. That said, three quarters of the time, I'm lazy and carry only the gun and creds.
I've never had a mag malfuction with this gun yet. Please educate me.
I know of at least two instances where Glock magazines failed to work. One happened to me, the other when I was FI for my old dept. These instances were not life threatening situations, but have come to pass. Do not trust blindly any mechanical device, all are man-made and due to fail at some point or another in their lifetime. This school of thought is the one I follow and why I always advocate the use of backup weapons, though not really when off-duty.
I know that carrying cuffs and an extra mag may sound excessive, but "what if?" If you go to the trouble of concealing a full frame weapon like the Glock 17, you can probably easily conceal a pair of cuffs and an extra mag. As a rule, if I carry off-duty, I carry a mag and cuff combo, be it on my belt or ankle. You could also carry a small OC device like the keychain one ASP has (key defender?).
I don't know where I heard/read this, but it makes sense: "Fate favors the prepared."
erosado “I know it may jam but it has to yet jam on the range..... I know Murphy's Law”.
I am aware that they can jam. Mine as of this date has not. I am by no means telling others that they don’t need to carry a second magazine. If it suits them they should carry more than one spare, a vest, OC, ASP and a back up gun. If I did this I might as well wear a uniform.
That being said I do carry a spare magazine on occasion (Court in civilian attire, etc). A good friend of mine is a Glock armorer. My firearms get regular inspections and all worn parts are replaced with factory components. This brings another point stay away from the wiz bang stuff. They just seem to fail more frequently.
The other gun (S&W 642) solves the worry of failures, but then on hand ammo is limited. I would recomend a speedstrip or speed loader in this case.
Time for bed :-)
Its not to difficult to carry a pair of flex cuffs under the belt, you dont even notice it. My 2cents
Ranger337
04-27-2004, 18:00
You shouldn't let other peoples opinions determine what is best for you. If you don't want to carry a firearm off-duty, then don't. If you want some restraint device, then by all means carry it. Only you can feel comfortable with what your bringing to the party. DM
dmclark said it best. If your department allows you to do so and you want to carry cuffs off duty by all means do it.
Thanks for the responses. OK,OK...you've convinced me of the importance of carrying at least one reload for the gun. Now for a little fun. This question is directed primarily to all the special agents or plainclothes detectives out there. Now I know that all that visit this board are "street survival oriented", and would not be caught dead without extra ammo on or about their persons. But fess up guys, what percentage of your fellow agents/detectives routinely go about without that extra mag ? Going on a big enforcement gig, sure they will through on a little extra gear. But does everybody in the office carry an extra mag for the day-to-day stuff ?. I'm willing to bet that some offices are probably 50/50.
Kahuna5150
04-28-2004, 00:20
fess up guys, what percentage of your fellow agents/detectives routinely go about without that extra mag ?
When I was a local police officer (detective) I would say everyone in my office carried a set of cuffs and one spare magazine. *MOST TIMES* (98%). Someone going to court might only have on their shield and gun (again the tragic killing of the CHP officer in Pomona should show us all that even court can be dangerous). I know the extra mags that CHP officer had on him did little good (ambushed), but again who would think coming out of court (traffic court even) in broad daylight would be a shooting situation.
In my office now I see some people carry only their duty weapon and no spare mags on their person and others (like myself) carry two spares on the belt. Everyone has their spare mags in their bags or vehicles, but again on the person not as many. I personally carry two spares, a set of cuffs, a Surefire light, and either OC or an ASP. I carry more goodies in my duty bag, but on my person I think I have enough stuff to keep me in the fight (even at night or indoors in reduced light) until help could arrive.
Again the biggest pain (in my opinion) is carrying a gun on or off duty. You have to constantly be aware of where it is, making sure it stays concealed, etc, etc. If you're going through all that trouble for a gun, what's an extra mag or set of cuffs?
Kind of like getting all suited up in SCUBA gear, (tanks, fins, mask, wetsuit, etc, but not being sure if you want to add the extra bit of weight and bother of carrying your dive knife). Once you're in that deep, might as well take everything you need along.
:)
Kahuna
But fess up guys, what percentage of your fellow agents/detectives routinely go about without that extra mag ?
Just a guess, but I figure probably 90% of the agents I work with carry at least one spare magazine. The few that don't tend to be old-timers who have been around forever and who don't get out of the office much...some of whom rarely carry their guns, let alone any other equipment. Does vary a bit by situation, even the more Officer Safety oriented guys who expect to sit in the office all day might not have the extra equipment on, but it is normally in their desk or briefcase. Personally I keep my gear on my belt in the office, mostly because I would end up forgetting to put in back on when I went out to the field.
A lot will depend on the agency though. I worked for one agency where only about half of us carried guns on a regular basis, as opposed to my current outfit where mostly everyone carries a gun at least on duty.
When I was a youth involved in that Great Conflict in SE Asia, I was ready to go out on my first op and my team Sgt. asked me how many mags I had for my M-16. I told him 6. He had 20. His comments to me have echoed for 30+ years of federal service and I passed this on to every baby agent who came into my office. You can adapt it to civilian jargon.
"When your lyin' in the grass with Charlie on your ass......don't ask me for ammo."
Thanks for the insight gents. I especially like the comparison to the scuba equipment.
Fedrich,
Your quote comes from the bad guy off the second under seige movie. While it may have been said before that, its this movie that I remember it from.
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