When to Carry Off Duty [Archive]

STL1974

12-23-2004, 21:05

Big Sexy

12-23-2004, 23:41

I am currently in the applicant process for FBI and I wanted to ask a question to those on the board. I realize that if I become an agent I will always be "on duty" 24/7, but in practice do most agents tend to carry a firearm off duty at ALL times? I was trying to get an idea of what is the norm since I am not coming from a law enforcement background currently, thx.

Let me clarify that I am not FBI, but can't see how they would be that much different from the rest of us poor federal agents.

The answer to the question you pose is, there is no norm. It is an individual decision that you and you alone make. Me, myself and I, tend to carry when I'm off duty. I know others who tend not to carry. I've ben with two agencies and have found this to be true in both. No one is going to tell you when, where, or why you have to carry or not. There are mitigating factors as to why myself and others carry. The same applies to the guys who tend not to carry.

Bottom line is, it will come down to what makes you more comfortable and whatever personal choices you make. This isn't an answer anyone can make for you. It's like the election, you will hear both sides of the argument and decide which side you agree with most.

Good luck with the FBI process.

fmr-army

12-24-2004, 09:12

modareguy

12-24-2004, 09:25

You aren't necessarily totally on-duty 24/7 with any agency. I'm an 1811 with another agency (not the bureau), but I do believe they allow you time off to eat and sleep *smirk*. My agency allows me to carry 24/7 anywhere, anytime (of course not while consuming adult beverages). However when i'm off the clock, in most instances my role can be best described as that of a "good witness." In the almost ten years I have been afforded CCW on the badge, I rarely carry off-duty. However none of the agencies I have worked for required you to carry off-duty, rather it was always an option. At the same time, I have absolutely no problem with those that do the opposite and choose to always carry off-duty, even if they were not required to do so. In the event I was armed and off-duty, the only time I personally would be inclined to take action is if the crime is directed toward me (i.e. someone is trying to jack me or someone with me) or a law enforcement officer. There are so many factors you have to consider when you take ANY action off-duty (or on duty for that matter). What you think is a simple one man take down to stop a crime in progress, may in fact involve multiple subjects or other factors that can change everything in an instant. Essentially you don't want to bite off more than you can chew, especially if you're alone. And just like when you are officially on-duty, your goal should be to go home at night in one piece....

Big Sexy

12-24-2004, 09:50

I asked the same basic question to a couple FBI buddies of mine a couple of years ago. They explained that it is FBI policy that they are always armed (with creds, etc) as they are always on duty. If an agent were ever in a position where they were needed, and were unarmed, they would have some SERIOUS 'splaining to do.

Having said the above, one of the guys literally never left the house without his gear (even to the mailbox). Another never departed his local area without his gear, meaning he'd mow the yard unarmed, but if he drove somewhere he'd take his weapon.

Technically all of us are always on duty, hence "one' of the reasons for "leap". But practically, you are off duty, when you're off. Unless of course you are called in to work.

That being said, let you respond to an off duty incident that goes bad, due to poor judgement. You'll quickly be informed by your agency that you were "off duty", when you screwed up and are on your own. The flip side of the coin is, if you handeled everything right and come out the hero, they'll claim you with open arms. "This agent is a fine example of the dedication to duty possesed by agents of agency X, when it comes to protecting the american public."

I know a lot of state and local municipalities require their personnel to carry 24/7. The G gives you that option, if one is allowed to by their particular agency, depending on their classification. We wouldn't get into that, for that is an entirely different thread in it's own right.

Me, I'm a carrier 95% of the time. Modareguy isn't. Who's right and who's wrong? Answer being we both are. There is no right or wrong, just different reasons as to why he doesn't carry most of the time and I do. As i said before, if you carry off duty or not is ultimately going to be your decision to make.

modareguy

12-24-2004, 09:55

Big Sexy we need you to be part of the "FAQ" section of the most asked questions on this board like this, if there ever were to be such a section (which had the all around best answers) :D

Big Sexy

12-24-2004, 10:00

Now you're making me all misty.

k9cop21811

12-24-2004, 10:12

I asked the same basic question to a couple FBI buddies of mine a couple of years ago. They explained that it is FBI policy that they are always armed (with creds, etc) as they are always on duty.
Gotta call BS on that one. They're either hyping the job or the "victims" of a bad policy, either way, it's BS. Nobody is LE in "on" 24/7 (the locals I know that are required to carry at all times are only required to do so in their city), armed and ready to pounce on crime wherever it may rear its ugly head. It sounds nice for a recruitment brochure maybe or a movie script, but that isn't real life. And unless the FBI is teaching their agents something totally opposite than FLETC in terms of how you should handle a crime in progress (generally speaking), being armed isn't necessarily going to be the determining factor in whether or not the outcome of that event is successful. Being smart about how you handle things is what matters and in many cases, regardless of how well armed you are, being a good witness and "calling it in" is probably what's going to save the day. There are obvious exceptions to that, but this, "always armed-one man SWAT team" (yes, I'm exaggerating, call it literary license) stuff is so unrealistic, it's comical. Even for those of us who are "on call" 24/7, there's still plenty of time in which you are "off" and from a mental health and life balance standpoint, that's a good thing.

If it actually is the FBI's policy that their agents always be armed, I guess that means that some of them are either drinking while armed, violating their policy by not being armed or ONLY having a drink at home. Nothing would surprise me, however.

fmr-army

12-24-2004, 10:17

I don't disagree with anything you all have said above - just answering with what my buddies told me.

Merry Christmas.

krellum

12-24-2004, 14:32

Nobody in LE is "on" 24/7

I'm kinda leaning towards k9 on this, especially where 1811's are concerned. if this were the case - if an agency DID tell their agents that they were "always" on duty - FLEOA would be having a field day. Imagine the changes they'd be advocating. There would be proposals to re-write LEAP policies, or at least make them more agent-friendly, because if you're really on duty 24/7, what agencies could actually make you work 10 hours a day ON TOP of all that extra "duty time"? Then there would be more talk regarding agencies that don't allow their 1811's off-duty carry - how could they NOT authorize it, if these guys are on duty 24/7?

I know this example is for the bureau, but you'd better believe that what one agency does/gets away with, it affects everyone else, especially in the eyes of FLEOA.

I seem to remember an FBI policy described to me by one my FBI friends that stated they were to have ACCESS to a firearm at all times. She explained that to mean if you were at home, it was in the house (i.e. it wasn't locked up in the office); if you were out and about, there was one in the car (in a gun safe), etc. She said the policy was designed that way in the event you were called out for something. That's very different from having to physically be armed 24/7.

k

JSavage

12-24-2004, 16:01

I'm not in LE so, all I can offer is anecdote and common sense.

I have a number of friends in various levels of LE locally and numerous CCW permit holders as well. The message they all give is loud and clear; if you carry a gun, carry a phone. Call it in, wait for help, and intervene only if someone is in immediate risk of death or serious bodily injury. Never carry unless you have your credentials and NEVER pull a weapon out of the holster unless you are preparing to shoot.

I guess that the idea is that you need back up. Don't risk your life off duty, the insurance doesn't pay well when you’re off the clock and take two from the guy you didn't see. Don't draw your piece until you're forced to; if a responding officer sees your weapon before he sees your creds, you become a distraction away from the real bad guys, and may compromise that officer’s safety.

As was said before, it is a decision each person makes for himself or herself. Make it a well thought out one. My take, well, I carry CCW. Hope I never pull it out anywhere but the range. I don't want to. I will if the situation arises and someone will be killed. I'm no hero, take all of the ho-hos you can get from the Seven-11 clerk, take his watch too! Here's mine mister knife holding career criminal with blue eyes, 5'6", brown hair, etc....(you get the picture)

If you never have to use it, it doesn't matter. If you do have to use it, it's best to have it available.

Jim

DFrost

12-24-2004, 16:55

I always get a kick out these types of questions. Those of us that have been in law enforcement for a number of years probably have different criteria of when we carry a weapon off duty. Scenario: You are at Wendy's having a burger with your date or significant other. Guy walks in, pulls a shotgun loudly announces as he holds the shotgun on the clerk, everyone just sit still, tells the clerk to give him the money, he takes it and starts toward the door. There are approximately 15 people in the resturant, not including employees. You're sitting there like everyone else, off-duty, and armed. Some say you are on-duty 24 hours a day, so what do you do?

DFrost

Big Sexy

12-24-2004, 17:16

You know the answer to these statements already.

I'll add my two cents for the non-leo members.

First as it's already been stated, you are not on duty 24/7. Not in the literal sense that one is actually working. You are working 24/7, in the figurative sense, that you are a leo and expected to behave like one 24/7. In this business, your job dictates with whom you can associate, where you can go and not go (in reference to places of ill repute) and what you can or can't do.

As far as being in Wendy's with my date. Damn dude, you're kinda cheap huh? :D I'm just kidding with you big fella, don't sicj the dogs on me just yet. But I degress, back to the wendy's scenario. I would sit and let Mr. Fast Food robber do his business and leave. I'd get a good describtion and tag # if at all possible.

Now, if Mr. FFR decided to start shooting people in the joint, then as I'm putting two in the 5 ring, I loudly and forcibly announce "Police!!"

After that I obtain hero status, start doing shaving commercials, make the late show and oprah show apperance and spend the night in the lincoln bedroom. Oh wait, we're not discussing an aircraft are we?
Ok, I contact my AtSac and inform him, give my statement to the locals, hide my face from the press (don't want to end up on the cover of USA Today identified as a Fam) and hours later, go home. It is ALWAYS better to be a good witness, as long as no one is in mortal danger. May god help you if your pulling your weapon causes the "bad guy" to injure or kill anyone.
key words are: "you pulling your weapon causes."

That's my rant and I'm out of here............c-ya. :cool:

DFrost

12-24-2004, 18:42

B.S.

Just as a bit of defense on my part, it was close to payday and after all, I'm state so Wendy's was it. Of course you are correct. Who should make a better witness than an LEO. Hope all enjoy this greatest of Holiday Seasons, Merry Christmas.

DFrost

Jedi

12-24-2004, 19:58

You're sitting there like everyone else, off-duty, and armed. Some say you are on-duty 24 hours a day, so what do you do?

DFrost

Is "Shoot the hostage" not an acceptable answer? :cool:

rzaruba

12-25-2004, 05:38

The G gives you that option, if one is allowed to by their particular agency

The key word is OPTION, which makes it YOUR personal choice. Off duty or carry during non-duty hours, if allowed, is permissive, not mandatory in most agencies.

And that gives them the ability to find that you were not acting in the perfomance of your duties and within the scope of your authority. And there goes your protection under the Tort Claims Act.

There is a difference between being authorized to CARRY, and being authorized to USE. It would not be unlikely that your actions would be treated as those of a private citizen.

Forget the wishful thinking, this is the real world. Those a$$es and elbows you see retreating in that cloud of dust are the managers and administrators you thought would back you up.

STL1974

12-26-2004, 07:54

Thanks to all of you for your responses - I appreciate the experienced opinions and thoughts. I will have to see how the process progresses and then revisit this topic. Thanks again and happy holidays to you all.

Group 9

12-26-2004, 10:30

The key word is OPTION, which makes it YOUR personal choice. Off duty or carry during non-duty hours, if allowed, is permissive, not mandatory in most agencies.

And that gives them the ability to find that you were not acting in the perfomance of your duties and within the scope of your authority. And there goes your protection under the Tort Claims Act.

There is a difference between being authorized to CARRY, and being authorized to USE. It would not be unlikely that your actions would be treated as those of a private citizen.

Forget the wishful thinking, this is the real world. Those a$$es and elbows you see retreating in that cloud of dust are the managers and administrators you thought would back you up.

The moral to this is to be very well versed in what your agency's policy is towards off duty and other jurisdiction crime arrests, and to be very familiar with how they have treated agents who have acted in similiar circumstances. Sometimes, the best indicator on what an agency is going to do is what they have done in the past, not what they SAY they will do.

Malone

12-26-2004, 18:50

I was reading the seniero at Wendy's and I thought that you were talking about the part of the movie "Coming to America".

Anyhow, my attmept at humor was not very good but to ask another off duty carry question, where do most people carry when they are off duty? I would imagine that the holster on the hip will kinda draw attention to one's self so where are the other most preferred options? Thanks!!

Malone

CanineCop

12-27-2004, 11:29

I carry a Glock 17 on my strong side hip in a pancake holster and it doesn't draw any undue attention. I previously carried a Sig P220 in the same way and it didn't draw any attention either. If I'm really dressing down I'll use a fanny pack. I think the fanny pack actually draws more attention than hip carry with an un-tucked shirt. The average member of the public is so wrapped up in themselves they would barely notice if you were leading a pet elephant on a leash (OK, I exaggerate). About the only time carrying bothers me is when I run into friends or relatives that are into hugging. With the gun on the hip they always seem to put an arm right on it. So far they either haven't realized what it is or have chosen to ignore it.

Eaglearm

12-27-2004, 13:51

Now, if Mr. FFR decided to start shooting people in the joint, then as I'm putting two in the 5 ring, I loudly and forcibly announce "Police!!"

In a place full of victims, by the time you yell POLICE your chances of opportunity and good shot placement is going down hill. What if he drops his gun and holds his hands up. You can't shoot then.

I know it's best to yell, "POLICE DROP YOUR WEPON!" However, do you really need to announce your presence while some idiot is blasting the joint? The perp is not going to hear you anyway with all the blasting.

Slow down, articulate what is going on, take your time, a shoot till the threat is no longer a threat. Those 2-3 shot placements are BS. Any one in defense of their life will tell you that you keep shooting till the threat is down and no longer. (I know from experience)

Squirrel_62

12-27-2004, 15:42

I usually carry a Glock 23 in an inside-the-pants holster. I also will occasionally carry a S&W .38 in either a pocket holster or on my ankle, but only on my ankle if no other option is possible. I've concealed my full-size duty weapon in the inside-the-pants holster under a sweater and I'm 5'8" and weigh 140 lbs.

Big Sexy

12-27-2004, 15:50

I agree EA, but check my pm for clarification.

ps312

12-27-2004, 23:47

The next time I see a cop/FLEO running with his fag pack, which obviously has a piece, I am going to flip. C’mon! ;) ;) ;) ;)

DFrost

12-28-2004, 07:21

I use an ankle glove, my little PPK fits just right. It's not at all noticable and fairly lightweight.

DFrost

Eaglearm

12-28-2004, 12:54

The next time I see a cop/FLEO running with his fag pack, which obviously has a piece, I am going to flip. C’mon! ;) ;) ;) ;)

Usually those are the folks that are new to the profession. After they take a ripping from others (veterans or salts), wearing fanny packs, they will stop.

Irishcopper

12-30-2004, 10:04

I use an ankle glove, my little PPK fits just right. It's not at all noticable and fairly lightweight.

DFrost

I have carried a Walther PPKS for years as a personal/off duty weapon. It doesn't have the firepower of other subcompacts but it works for me. It is very easy to conceal in a holster under a shirt or jacket. While, it is not the safest method of carrying a PPKS I have even temporarily carried it in the pocket of my flight jacket when I needed fast access to it. I would never carry my "safetyless" Glock 26 in my pocket :eek:

Irishcopper :cool:

ATFpoa

12-30-2004, 10:29

To answer the original question of when I carry...for me it is:
Swimming: no
Working out: no
In and around the house: no
Pretty much everywhere else: yes

Again, it is a personal decision...but when I was in the academy for my first police job, a guy in a nearby town made an appointment with a plastic surgeon, and shot and killed him during the consultation. My future FTO ended up catching the guy. If you can't even go to the doctor's office without someone getting shot, then you better be prepared...just my opinion.

And Big Sexy: shaving commercials??? If you got that famous, I would expect nothing less than a line of colognes...Eau de Big Sexy! :D

PEACE

12-30-2004, 10:45

Eau de Big Sexy! :D

Or is it Eau de BS?

The Brown Hornet

12-30-2004, 13:50

Reminds me of something a great firearms instructor told me:

"The only times you can have too much ammo is if you are drowning or on fire..."

Brettkazcop

12-30-2004, 16:39

Reminds me of something a great firearms instructor told me:

"The only times you can have too much ammo is if you are drowning or on fire..."

On that note....do any of you guys carry an extra box of ammo in your duty bag, besides the extra two magazines on your belt? Mods, feel free to wack me with the internet beat down stick if this question should be another topic.

Kaz

Big Sexy

12-30-2004, 17:31

On that note....do any of you guys carry an extra box of ammo in your duty bag, besides the extra two magazines on your belt? Mods, feel free to wack me with the internet beat down stick if this question should be another topic.

Kaz

In a previous life I carried an M-4 with 3 mags, my sidearm with 2 magazine carriers of 2 and a single mag carrier. My single mag carrier was my warning system. If I'd gone through all my other magazines and got to that one, it was time to de de maw out of there.

I know to some that was/is overkill, but look at it from my point of few. During a 14 month period, we had 51 shootings and one agent killed. During this same period I was in 4 shootings and shot once. Myh last shooting was with a group of 5 to 6 individuals with automatic rifles and shotguns.

I felt it was better to have and not need it, than need it and not have it. It was the same reason I carried no less than 2 cuffs as well as flexi's. I've been in too many incidents, where one pair of cuffs just wasn't enough. Even now Big Sexy carries 2 pair of cuffs for multiple suspects.

satpak77

12-30-2004, 17:50

Most 1811s I know, from all the agencies, do carry off-duty, when

- On a road trip in the car with or without the family

- TDY but "off", example, Agent Dokes is TDY to Laredo for a T-III. He is "off" on Saturday and Sunday and goes to the mall or downtown for some shopping. He is carrying.

- At night, on the town with family, movies, etc

Most 1811s I know, do NOT carry off-duty, when

- Daytime "routine" trip to grocery store or Wal Mart

- Going to doctors office or kids doctor, etc

- Near large groups of kids, say kids party at McDonalds

this is only based on my own experience and my buddies, but it should generally give you an idea

later

* by the way, the official "off duty" response to a law enforcement situation is dial 911, unless its life or death or a police officer is getting beaten up in front of you, just about everything else, call 911. Use your common sense of course

FedRich

12-30-2004, 21:27

On that note....do any of you guys carry an extra box of ammo in your duty bag, besides the extra two magazines on your belt?

We are required by policy to have a certain specified amount of additional ammo available.

As far as carrying off-duty is concerned, it varies greatly. I used to live between DC and Baltimore, so carried even when walking the dog. Crime in that area was way too random. My current location has a much lower crime rate, but I make it a point to carry in the southern part of the county. I think Satpak's description fits my experience too.

JSavage

01-01-2005, 17:37

trackstar16

01-01-2005, 17:59

Big Sexy

01-01-2005, 18:06

Sorry but I've got to ask...

Big S. , where in he!! were you working where you were in a fire fight with 5-6 gunmen with automatic firearms? You were carrying tha same bullet count as a army rifleman with a combat load (180 rounds). I can't help but think I would not want to work in a place like that.

OR is it just ..........

Jim

I was working the southern border. The described incident involved drug smugglers and took place on a ranch, approximately 12 miles south of town. Most of the land in Texas is private ranch land. The only thing that separates the U.S. from Mexico is the Rio Grande river. We recovered 70 lbs in the water, while the Mexican police recovered 700 lbs abandonded on their side.

Whoever sent me the negative points along with the comment that it was BS, thank you. While you're at it, talk with some of the Border Patrol guys on the board and ask them about working drug smugglers. All smugglers don't cut and run.

universible

01-01-2005, 18:30

BS, as in Bix Sexy :D

I talked to a number of BPA's who have had somewhat similar encounters...not to mention the fact that it was probably the Mexican military shooting back at you...we don't have those problems in the Bay Area, thank goodness :D

Ted

YELLODOG1

01-01-2005, 21:30

Carrying off duty can be both a good thing and bad thing. You may be able to respond to something that happens as you walk by, but the agency will only cover you if you followed their directives and it looks good as far as the agency goes. If something goes wrong, its your job thats on the line.
Also, there are a number of rules to follow while carrying your duty weapon, it may be a lot easier, if you are worried, to carry a personal firearm, this will not put you in a situation that may threaten your job. Most agencies want you to have your duty firearm with you at all times, and they cant be left unattended in your vehicle. This can pose problems, also if you end up going to dinner, and having a glass of wine or a beer, you dont want to have your duty firearm with you. I think a personal firearm is a better choice if you are intent on carrying.

rzaruba

01-02-2005, 05:40

This can pose problems, also if you end up going to dinner, and having a glass of wine or a beer, you dont want to have your duty firearm with you. I think a personal firearm is a better choice if you are intent on carrying.

Before I left, they were going hot and heavy on the cars and guns and alcohol.

If you are even going to be near alcohol, leave the weapon home. Whether it's a POW or a GOW will not matter. There are an ample number of charges which can be used against you.

If you are not authorized to carry a POW under your creds, they can get you for that, and if you are, it becomes a defacto GOW by virtue of your authorization memo.

Even having a state CCW may not protect you since the charges do not have to be directly related to the firearm.

eff-bee-eye

01-02-2005, 07:47

What about POW rules for leaving your weapon in your car? Is it ever even acceptable to lock up your gun in your car?

DallasTX

01-02-2005, 10:33

If my gun is not in my gun safe at home it will always be in my person. There is no way I will leave my weapon in my car regardless of the situation. I don't drink so that solves many of the problems.

Big Sexy,

I'm glad you made it out of the Patrol unhurt. I'm one of those trying to get out but seems like no one wants to hire me as an 1811. ;)

D

Group 9

01-02-2005, 16:12

I was working the southern border. The described incident involved drug smugglers and took place on a ranch, approximately 12 miles south of town. Most of the land in Texas is private ranch land. The only thing that separates the U.S. from Mexico is the Rio Grande river. We recovered 70 lbs in the water, while the Mexican police recovered 700 lbs abandonded on their side.

Whoever sent me the negative points along with the comment that it was BS, thank you. While you're at it, talk with some of the Border Patrol guys on the board and ask them about working drug smugglers. All smugglers don't cut and run.

We've had a few incidents, mostly overseas, where there were some pretty high round counts. There was one in Bolivia, around 1989 or 1990, where three agents and three Bolivian narcotics agents were in a fight where the round count, just by the good guys, was around 250-300.

I know another in the Bahamas, where one agent went through two 30 round M-16 magazines in a shootout with some smugglers, in addition to all of the rounds fired by the Bahamians.

Not to mention the ATF raid on the Branch Davidians, where many ATF agents ran out of ammo during the firefight.

So, those who don't believe it can happen in this job, just need to ask around some when they get to their first office.

Big Sexy

01-02-2005, 16:28

Thanks all for the supporting posts and pm's. They are very much appreciated.

If someone had told the LAPD officers, involved in the bank heist shoot out in 97, they'd have to borrow weapons from gun stores due to the firepower and body armor carried by the robbers, you'd have been called crazy. "What do you mean the bullets will be bouncing off? That's crazy talk."

For those seeking to join our faternity be aware that law enforcement is both a very dangerous and very boring job. Where the impossible, becomes possible, no matter how improbable. rarely can one predict how a day may end. First things you are taught, there is no such thing as a "routine vehicle stop" and domestics are the most dangerous calls you can get, due to both being unpredictable.

I'm positive everyone on this board has a story to tell, which will have us all rivited to the screen like a good book.