Walther PPK/S, .380

[Eaglearm]

Like my other post on the HK, I've been looking at the Walther PPK/S pistol as well (.380) I know its going down a notch in calibers. Yet, a .380 is not that bad and still has alot of velocity. Plus, German Engineering is still great. I've heard they are accurate and tore one down for a fellow officer. The barrel is part of the frame. :)

Any one out there own the Walther PPK/S. American Style ?(Mag release up top)

[PEACE]

I own one, though of the European release style. It's thin, and reliable. I should add though that I am a big believer in muscle memory and would therefore argue that if you carry a Glock on-duty, try to find a compact design for off-duty carry. The more changes or deviations from what you are trained on, the more likely you will have to take eyes off the target when in the shit.

On the other hand, if you are looking for a reason to buy a new piece Eagle - the Walther is a nice little gun. :)

[UncleSugar]

Eaglearm, I haven't had any experience with the PPK/s myself, but you may to search the gun forums like sigforum.com to get some advice there. I have heard complaints about them, but get some answers from the hardcore gun fanatics.

However, if you want something other than a baby Glock have you ever considered a S&W 642 as a backup gun? .38Spl is a decent round, and those lightweight S&W revolvers are great. CDNN Investment has had some good prices on those recently.

[State Boy]

No way would I consider that weapon. My agency just got rid of them. I've been on the line and seen malfunction after malfunction with that weapon. We switched over to the Glock 27 and have not had a problem since. Why carry a .380 when you can carry a 40 cal. I carry the 27 in an ankle holster every shift, It's the way to go. But that's just my .02.

[Signal9TN]

I carry a Colt Pony .380 sometimes. It is my ankle gun for church and "jeans short" pocket gun in the summer.

[dmclark]

Don't like the .380 and in my opinion, there's just no reason to carry the sub standard caliber when you've got 9mm's and .40's the same size.

There's no better weapon than the Glock 27 for concealed carry. And I'd rather face an adversary with a .40 than the .380. DM

[kennethm3]

Eagle,

I have read your posts about your search for an off-duty piece or back-up smaller and lighter than your G27. I am confused that your search is taking you to sub-standard calibers and all steel guns. Both of your choices are heavier than the G27 and one is even larger. You think a G27 beats your ankle now, trust me, an all steel PPK or a P7 isn't going to improve things in that regard. You are looking at complicated to use weapons that are probably drastically different than your G27 and most likely your duty weapon too. Personally I wish I could carry our G27 as an off duty piece (don't tell management but I do on occaision, in full knowledge that if the excrement hits the fan I will stand all alone without the backing of my agency). As it stands I am stuck with a P239, a very nice gun, don't get me wrong but I'd rather carry something smaller, lighter and idiot proof to shoot in an emergency; like a G27. I recommend that you sit back and think hard about why you are carrying off-duty or what kind of capability you need as a back-up and about what an off-duty shooting is going to be like,then decide what is the best weapon for that situation. I think you'll find that you are already carrying the best possible weapon for that situation. Oh, and BTW; .380 is a crap round. If bad guys are still breathing after taking 11 body shots of 9mm duty rounds (DSS off-duty shooting in Brooklyn last year), .380, or 9mm short as it is also known isn't going to be effective when you need it. Stick with .40, it is a proven one shot drop gun.

Just my 2 cents, stay safe,

Ken

[tango12]

Your reference to an off-duty DSS shooting caught my eye. Hadn't seen it mentioned on here before, would it be possible to provide a little info or a media link to pass on info?

[Lupey]

If you are seriously looking at the wather in .380 save yourself some money and grab a Makarov in 9x18 or a Bersa .380. Mr. Stephen A. Camp (http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/) (who has written reviews for gun mags) runs a great website with reviews of both pistols plus other. The Mak falls inbetween the .380 and the 9 and you can pick one up in the vicinity of $150. You will NOT find a better bang for the buck. As far as durability - well I will put my Mak up against a Glock anyday.


There are stories out there ranging from some dieing from a toe shot from a .45 to someone walking thru a gazillion 9 mm rounds. You carry what you feel comfortable with. If you do your job the round will do its.

[Eaglearm]

However, if you want something other than a baby Glock have you ever considered a S&W 642 as a backup gun? .38Spl is a decent round, and those lightweight S&W revolvers are great. CDNN Investment has had some good prices on those recently.

I would love a lightweight revolver. There is nothing better than a reliable cylinder spinning over. No Jams. Yet, I would have to train myself in using something different. Still not out of my mind.... :o

[Eaglearm]

Thanks guys for all the advice.

Ankle Beating. Don't know what the heck is going on. The bulky ankle holsters are just that, it may be comfortable. Yet, sticks out like a bell bottom. I just can not take the beating, consistently pulling up my holster, even with calf strap, and adjusting it during shift. There has got to be something better. Thus, for now I'm giving up on ankle holsters.

Granted I love my G27. Yet, I failed to mention that my G23 works fine for off-duty carry.

I'm just trying to figure out something better.

[Time Traveller]

Like my other post on the HK, I've been looking at the Walther PPK/S pistol as well (.380) I know its going down a notch in calibers. Yet, a .380 is not that bad and still has alot of velocity. Plus, German Engineering is still great. I've heard they are accurate and tore one down for a fellow officer. The barrel is part of the frame. :)

Any one out there own the Walther PPK/S. American Style ?(Mag release up top)

I have one of every Walther, from the TPH to the new manufacture. I love them, they are some of the finest engineered weapons you will find.

I have PP, PPK, PPK/s in 22, 32 and 380. I kid you not, they are fine weapons. Whether I would use the 9mm kurz as primary defense weapon...the answer is NO, lots of velocity, but not the stopping power I would like in a defense firearm.

Hope this helps

[jts]

The DSS shooting is exactly why carrying a subcaliber gun is a bad idea. It's also a good reason why carrying your gun in the same holster and same place as you do on duty as you do off duty is important. Finally, it shows that you should always CARRY YOUR GUN! You have your creds, you carry your gun! Prior to the shooting I was getting on my coworkers about not carrying their guns off duty, especially since they were fond of carrying their creds. Even after the shooting, these people still said that they would now "consider" maybe carrying their gun off duty. Sigh, these are NOT people I trust to back me up.

The perp was hit 12 out of 14 times from less than spitting distance with at least two hits as I recall in the torso area with one bullet still lodged by the asshole's heart and spine which could not be removed. At least the perp lost both testicles as opposed to being DRT. Basically what happened was that our friend and coworker was visiting his mom and the perp demanded money from him at gunpoint at which time the good guy unloaded on him and even had the presence of mind to conduct a combat reload and seek cover. The agent is a good guy and although I have never seen him shoot, I would at least owe some of his success to DSS's excellent firearms program.

[tango12]

Appreciate the community on here always coming through with info.

Thanks

[Brettkazcop]

I would love a lightweight revolver. There is nothing better than a reliable cylinder spinning over. No Jams. Yet, I would have to train myself in using something different. Still not out of my mind.... :o

I tried out the airweight and the airlight S&W hammerless revolvers. I personally did not like them, although I know a handful of guys on my department do like them. I like the fact that they are a good reliable gun, but I shot HORRIBLE with them. My range master was nice enough to let me try out some guns before i purchased my back up. I believe he had me shooting the +p .380 ammo....I found the heavy trigger pull on the S&W's a bit awkward and difficult for me, personally to predict. I also found it had a significant "bite" for a small light gun that would not help with acquiring my target again on my second shot.

Like you, I also carry a Glock on duty. I carry the Glock 21 and I train with the short trigger reset. I personally like the feel of the trigger pull on my glock and the general feel of the gun. So, with advice actually from this forum and my range master I tried out the Glock 26 and liked it a lot. I shoot great with it, just like my 21, and all the operations of the gun are the same as my duty weapon. I also carry the Glock 26 as my backup weapon, I have found ankle carry for it a pain sometimes as well, I am not a big guy, a little over 5'9'' and 170lbs. I found a good leather holster from Galco I do like though and I also love the G&G boot holster that laces right into your boot. When I am wearing the G&G holster it is a lot more comfortable.

I did a lot of research before I bought my backup, like you I also looked into some smaller guns hoping that I could find something that was lighter and i wouldn't even feel on my ankle. But I found no other weapons that compared. I looked at the Kel-Tech's for a while...but if you do some searching on the internet the views are sooo mixed. You get about 50% saying they like it and 50% saying it is the worst gun they have ever had. And no matter what, I have heard of certain jamming problems being considered normal. Well...I don't know about you...but no jamming problem is considered normal in my book.

I am pretty happy with my glock 26, which is pretty much the same frame as your 27. You may want to try out that G&G holster if you do wear boots, I like it a LOT! But from your previous posts, it doesn't sound like you do wear boots often. I am about to try out the Bianchi triad ankle holster for off duty carry....I'll let ya know how that works out.

Kaz

[dmclark]

I wear my G27 on my ankle and have carried on my ankle for many, many years. It is discreet and allows you to work all kinds of places and not worry about "brushes" from folks in tight quarters who may wonder if you're carrying.

Granted, it's not as fast as a Kydex scabbard, but it's always there. I currently use a DeSantis Apache rig for the G27. I usually use Alessi ankle rigs, but I didn't like the bulk of the rig with the G27. So I went to the Apache and am happy with it.

[ATFpoa]

Just FYI,
Walter PPK and PPK/S models do not have an inertial firing pin block. In english: no "drop safety". This means that if the gun is dropped on the muzzle at a significant enough height, it will fire, even with the manual safety/decocker engaged.

A good substitute is the Sig P230 or it's newer replacement, the P232. Roughly the same shape, but alloy frame, so it is lighter. Only a .380 though. There are a lot of slim, small 9mm or .40's out there now.

[Eaglearm]

Boy if I had the right tools in my garage, brain power, and enough $$$, I could make the right gun for COPS. It would be lightweight and pack a hard punch. I wonder if ATF would be upset. :o

Thanks all for your advise. I'll carry my G23 on Duty as a back-up and off-duty as well.

Now for home defense. A pistol that momma could use and not feel scared around the little one. Revolver? :o :o

[ATFpoa]

You can't go wrong with a .38/.357 by a major American manufacturer.

[LeeRoy]

I'm a former stainless PPK owner. It was German made but had the american mag release. A cool little gun but it was a bit heavy for a pocket/ankle gun. I carried it both ways and it did okay. What I didn't like is that with my big meathook hands the slide cycling back would leave track marks in the web of my hand. Since I had carried a S&W auto for years the safety on the Walther was comfortable. I shot a buddy's P230 a few times. It was just a little bit bigger than my Walther and more comfortable to shoot.

Now a short rant about guns. I'm a big proponant of bigger is better. It's my opinion that bigger bullets properly matched to the gun stop more reliably than smaller bullets. Both my duty and off-duty guns are .45. Your goal as a cop is not to kill somebody it's to stop them from assaulting you or somebody else. If you make the decision to shoot you are shooting to stop that assault. For those of you who are cops be careful getting into the idea that stopping equals killing. What you write in a web page could conceiveably come back to haunt you in a civil trial someday. With computer research who knows.

Without more information how can we say the DSS incident demonstrates the inadequacy of the 9mm? Did the agent fire all 14 in immediate succession or did he fire one or two at a time evaluating the effectiveness of his shots? My bet is that the 14 rounds went out the pipe rather quickly. Kennethm3's statement about the .40 being a one shot stop is a bit of a stretch. I wouldn't be surprised if the DSS's agent's ammo was not the ideal selection. Having a round lodge near the spine assuming it hit center mass is a sign of overpenetration. Overpenetration reduces effectiveness and is a symptom of a round failing to expand to its full size. This is why FMJ rounds are not as effective as hollow points.

[Eaglearm]

I can agree with the last post. It's great to carry a large round to stop your threat. Yet, they may not always be the case.

As COPS including myself, we have all watched those films were COPS get shot and killed. One of the things that sticks in my mind is that the majority of the shooting have been with small calibers.

Now I do not have stats in front of me, but I can remember the South Carolina Trooper taking a small caliber bullet under his left arm between his vest. This Trooper was six feet tall and built like a buffalo. He was dropped to the ground.

I realise that bigger is better, but that may not always be the case.

Since I've started this post, I've learned alot. Thus, I will carry my G23 as a backup and off-duty weapon. As a test, I went two weeks without touching my G27 and I come to find out that my G23 would be just fine. Thus, I sold my G27 to another COP.

I still plan on getting a Walther PPKS. Yet, this will be a gun carried in my CIB Unit when wearing my suit and tie and handling inside business. When I go outside, I'll pack my G22 and G23.

[Jcsbekk]

Just my two cents. If you are going to carry off-duty, carry something with some knock down power. I would not carry anything less than a .40 cal. Your average off-duty shooting distance is probably 3-4 feet away. I carry a .357 or a .45 (if I'm wearing enough clothing to cover it up). Everyone has their own preference, but I am a firm believer of "The bigger the better"!

JB

[Dylan889]

I have owned a SIG P230/.380. It was a nice little gun.

Look at Kahr pistols. It is a single stack 9mm and .40 cal. They make a pocket gun and larger sizes. Both the 9mm and .40 where the same size or smaller than my old SIG P230. They come in a metal frame or a glock type frame, they are nice little guns.

I like the J-frame .38 Smith & Wessons, even thought you give up some accuracy.

[rangerfourever]

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