1911? Can you carry them off duty???

[Dylan889]

I am in the process of trying to get an 1811 job. Since I am a gun fanatic I would like to get a CCW gun in the mean time. I would like to have something that I could use, on or off duty, should I get hired.
I am looking at the SW1911-Sc, but if I might not be able to use it for FLE use on or off duty I would get a SIG P229 or P239 or maybe a Kahr.
Any opinions???

[Reservoir Dog]

I don't know of any 1811 position in which you can carry a 1911 style pistol. Maybe in a specialized SWAT unit, but not as a regular agent. I don't think any agency uses the Kahr or the P239 either. Your safest bet is with the SIG P229. It is widely issued, but in different calibers (9mm, .357, .40). Also, be aware that some Fed agencies do not allow you to carry a personally owned weapons. My opinion, don't worry about what a agency will issue you for duty carry, and buy whatever you want to carry off-duty on your CCW.

[rzaruba]

Any opinions???

I think you should worry about getting the job first.

[Frank_Pembleton]

I know thw FBI's regional FO SWAT teams and HRT carry 1911s. I believe their different models though, Kimbers and SAs.

[Dylan889]

I don't know of any 1811 position in which you can carry a 1911 style pistol. Maybe in a specialized SWAT unit, but not as a regular agent. I don't think any agency uses the Kahr or the P239 either. Your safest bet is with the SIG P229. It is widely issued, but in different calibers (9mm, .357, .40). Also, be aware that some Fed agencies do not allow you to carry a personally owned weapons. My opinion, don't worry about what a agency will issue you for duty carry, and buy whatever you want to carry off-duty on your CCW.

Thanks for the advice. I think I will do just that, and get what I want, a 1911. Although I do like the P229, that would be my choice to carry for duty. Since I don't have the LE job yet I will worry about that later.

Thanks.

[Dylan889]

I think you should worry about getting the job first.

Why you got to rain on my parrade??? :where: LOL

[rzaruba]

Why you got to rain on my parrade??? :where: LOL

Because the first thing you've got to do is get the job. Then you have to adapt to it and come to accept the good and bad parts.

And then, in 15 years, you'll remember this and realize it's true.

Like the stuff all the old guys told me when I started. I didn't like it because it wasn't what I wanted to hear. About guns, ammo, money, the job, being "backed up" by the agency.

But you know what? THEY were the only ones who told us the truth!

BTW, DO NOT bring this up in any way during an interview.

OH, and Never, NEVER ask "How much worse can it get?" You'll find out.

[modareguy]

Actually rzaruba is right. Don't put the cart before the horse. Sorry but the "gun fanatic" (your words, not mine) caught my eye. A few years ago I had an interview with a smaller OIG office and the issue of CCW specifically came up with the RAiC. They wanted to know if I ever had a CCW permit and if so, why? At the time I was a local police officer, so it was a non-issue. I'm not anti-gun, rather IMHO you should focus on the application process. I probably would keep the 'gun fanatic' thing on the DL during interviews.

Buying a new handgun for target purposes or home defense (regardless of make/model) is one thing. But spending hundreds on a handgun specifically for CCW that you will most likely never be agency authorized to carry off-duty is a waste....

[Eaglearm]

You may be hurting yourself with the CCW Permit.

During your background stage with XYZ Agency, this permit may come up. How are you going to explain it? Like others and myself, if you are presently a Certified Officer or Agent, it will not be an issue. If you are not, it will. The Agency may see it as Poor Judgement Skills.

Now if you have it for home defense and keep it at home that is different issue.

Besides if you do have the CCW Permit and the weapon is on your person, you may be entitled to pull it out during a situation that most cops off-duty would not pull it out. Once this happens and a local investigation is completed, you've probably doomed your chances of hire.

For now it's not worth getting the CCW. Keep the 1911 at home for defense. Trust me, after you become certified and gain some experience, you'll see the light.

[FNG 107]

To the best of my knowledge FBI regional SWAT and the HRT use a highly customized and tweaked Springfield Armory single-stack 1911's. I don't know if they carry it for normal agent duties (for the enhanced SWAT...HRT is always HRT) or off-duty. You can buy it from Springfield Armory for a hefty chunk of change...it's called The Professional...there's also a cheaper version without all of the bells and whistles. I don't have one...or a CCW permit :p

BTW, DO NOT bring this up in any way during an interview.
I think that is why he's bringing it up here.

[Kimble]

Besides if you do have the CCW Permit and the weapon is on your person, you may be entitled to pull it out during a situation that most cops off-duty would not pull it out. Once this happens and a local investigation is completed, you've probably doomed your chances of hire.

For now it's not worth getting the CCW. Keep the 1911 at home for defense. Trust me, after you become certified and gain some experience, you'll see the light.

I’ve got to agree with the statements above. I have a CCW, but it is required for my position as a reserve deputy sheriff. Since I work part-time as a LEO, I have a valid reason for carrying my CCW, so I likely wouldn't be viewed as just another "gun nut". Plus, I NEVER carry my firearm when not on duty and not in uniform. I'm a part-timer, and I have future career plans that I don't intend on jeopardizing. Play it safe... if you want a job in FLE, the CCW for the reason listed above may not be such a good idea.

[Dylan889]

You may be hurting yourself with the CCW Permit..................

Does anyone know if this true????

I certainly don't want to hurt my chances. But if it is perfectly leagel to get a CCW why should it be an issue? From what I looked into, it is a realitively simple process in my state.

[Reservoir Dog]

But spending hundreds on a handgun specifically for CCW that you will most likely never be agency authorized to carry off-duty is a waste....
I was not aware that your agency could dictate what you carry off-duty on a state issued CCW permit. If you are carrying off-duty on your LE badge and creds, that is a different story. If you are carrying on your CCW permit, your are legally carrying as a private citizen, not an LEO. Are there specific agencies out there that have this kind of restriction?
During your background stage with XYZ Agency, this permit may come up. How are you going to explain it? Like others and myself, if you are presently a Certified Officer or Agent, it will not be an issue. If you are not, it will. The Agency may see it as Poor Judgement Skills.
Maybe I am missing something, but how can having a legally obtained CCW permit be considered poor judgement skills? I agree that a person should be focused on getting hired; and that if you walk into an interview wearing your "From My Cold Dead Fingers" NRA shirt and saying you are a gun fanatic with a CCW because you have always wanted to be a cop, you will definitely get the "don't call us, we'll call you" response. However, saying you have a CCW permit strictly for personal protection really should not be an issue.

Modareguy, I understand that this happened to you, but I have been through several interviews and BIs, and conducted BIs on applicants. This issue has never come up. Did that agency say that they frowned on someone having a CCW permit? Did they say why? I would like to understand why an agency might consider this a problem.

[Eaglearm]

Does anyone know if this true????

I certainly don't want to hurt my chances. But if it is perfectly leagel to get a CCW why should it be an issue? I am in Texas and, from what I looked into, it is a realitively simple process. One weekend training class, and send in your application and money for a background check.

It may not hurt you. However, it is a Judgement thing. As a Background Investigator or some one who would be reviewing your packet to determine if you make it to the next step, this could be an issue to cause questions.

Several Questions that I would be asking from a HDQTS Aspect.

1. Why does this applicant feel the need to carry a weapon?
2. Why does this applicant have a CCW?
3. Why does he want a job with us and feels that having a CCW Permit will help his chances of employment?
4. Is this applicant a gun nut or just feel the need to carry a weapon?

During the evaluation stages, these are questions and or situations that you want to stay far away from.

I WILL CLOSE WITH THIS AND SAY NO MORE. YOU DECIDE FROM MY POST AND OTHERS.

TRUST ME!!! IS THIS CCW PERMIT AND WEAPON WORTH THE QUESTIONS THAT WOULD OR WOULD NOT COME UP. [U]A CCW PERMIT WILL NOT HELP YOUR CHANCES OF GETTING HIRED.[/U

[JRG]

I've seen a couple of the previous posts that (to me anyway) indicate not getting a CCW or waiting is a good idea or that the CCW would could be a negative factor if you're in the hiring or BI process. I don't want to hijack this thread any further (infact, theres already been one that addresses this arguement specifically) but I would like to add my $.04 to say that I would have to disagree with this theory.

I can see how some people with a CCW could get themselves in a bind but thats more an issue with their decision making ability and thought process than just having a CCW. Before you get the CCW you will have to take the class that explain the laws and certian dos and don'ts. I would also like to think that most LE applicants and/or CCW permit holders have enough common sense to avoid jumping in situations that are not a matter of absolute life and death. Unfortunately, we all know that common sense ain't all that common and good people can make a bad decision. The CCW alone isn't going to be a bad thing, now if you get the CCW and in your first week with the permit takedown 3 speeders and break up 2 barfights all at gun point- then yeah- you got a problem- otherwise, I don't see how it can hurt an applicant at all. BTW: I personally think its better to have a CCW and carry the gun concealed as opposed to wearing the gun exposed and creating a scene or carrying the gun concealed w/o a CCW. All around, I think if you spend much time with a handgun (going to the range, out on an ATV, hunting, etc) you're safer to go ahead and get the CCW.

[Eaglearm]

[QUOTE=Reservoir Dog]Maybe I am missing something, but how can having a legally obtained CCW permit be considered poor judgement skills? I agree that a person should be focused on getting hired; and that if you walk into an interview wearing your "From My Cold Dead Fingers" NRA shirt and saying you are a gun fanatic with a CCW because you have always wanted to be a cop, you will definitely get the "don't call us, we'll call you" response. However, saying you have a CCW permit strictly for personal protection really should not be an issue. QUOTE]

Do what you want to do. As an applicant and in the process with different XYZ Agencies, it is something that I would not advertise.

Also, anther question that may come up. WHY IS THE GUN THING SUCH AN ISSUE????????????????

[Geronimo509]

Does anyone know if this true????




If you don't have one already, then I would take the others advice and hold off on getting one - why risk the chance of it being viewed negatively when your goal is to become a LEO? I do strongly believe in the right to carry - but as a prospective hiree, I also don't want to affect the chance of getting hired. I hope you feel the same.

If you do have a CCW (I presently do - got one after I got out of military) it all comes down to how you explain your reasoning for wanting to carry. Be very careful with this... it is very easy to come off the wrong way when explaining your intentions. In fact, I would try not to bring it up if possible. If it is raised during interview by the prospective agency, think out your explaination very carefully in advance. (In my case - I owned a personal weapon while in the military that I kept at my house, a CCW was not expensive and was offered in my state, the required course had a good reputation for providing extra training on weapon handling, and getting one would make it easier for myself to transport my weapon legally to a local range and shooting club...).

IMHO you should not just go out at this stage of the hiring process (assuming you are getting close) and get a CCW just to carry and be armed - I know I would not do so at this time if I had the choice again as my BI is just beginning with DSS.

In addition you might also unknowningly be picking up bad concealed carry habits, that you will have to "unlearn" during your potential LEO training.

[ATFpoa]

Does anyone know if this true????

I certainly don't want to hurt my chances. But if it is perfectly leagel to get a CCW why should it be an issue? I am in Texas and, from what I looked into, it is a realitively simple process. One weekend training class, and send in your application and money for a background check.


Some in law enforcement, federal law enforcement in particular, have a "unique" view about people who carry guns. For you or me, or the street cop, the need would be obvious: you need to defend yourself...but to those who are agents, but had no street time as a cop, the need isn't quite as obvoious. And sometimes, to them, it looks paranoid. If you can provide additional justification (I make large cash deposits at night), then it might appear more justified. But "Just because I can" WILL seem paranoid or "gun crazy" to them.

A good example of this: I carry my gun every day at work. I am inside an office for a good deal of the time, and I could never bring myself to leave it in a desk drawer, like some other agents. My first few months at this office, I would have agents ask me: "do you have some operation (warrant) going today?" They automatically assumed that because I was carrying, I had to do something enforcement related. This is the mindset of quite a few 1811's. In my own view, this mind set is more prevalent with bosses. Maybe it is because the street oriented guys stay as working agents, and the admin oriented guys take the management track.

One last warning: The kooks that are attracted to our profession seem to be attracted primarily to the "Trappings of Office"...badge, gun, police car. Not that everyone else doesn't like these things as well, but the kooks show an unnatural fascination with these things. This is one of the things that they will be looking for during the hiring process. Show more interest in the actual work being done.

If you want the CCW permit, it's your call. But I would definitely have a solid reason why you got it. Good luck.

P.S. FBI swat are the only ones I know that carry the 1911 in FED LE.

[JRG]

If you don't have one already, then I would take the others advice and hold off on getting one - why risk the chance of it being viewed negatively when your goal is to become a LEO? I do strongly believe in the right to carry - but as a prospective hiree, I also don't want to affect the chance of getting hired. I hope you feel the same.

If you do have a CCW (I presently do - got one after I got out of military) it all comes down to how you explain your reasoning for wanting to carry. Be very careful with this... it is very easy to come off the wrong way when explaining your intentions. In fact, I would try not to bring it up if possible. If it is raised during interview by the prospective agency, think out your explaination very carefully in advance. (In my case - I owned a personal weapon while in the military that I kept at my house, a CCW was not expensive and was offered in my state, the required course had a good reputation for providing extra training on weapon handling, and getting one would make it easier for myself to transport my weapon legally to a local range and shooting club...).

IMHO you should not just go out at this stage of the hiring process (assuming you are getting close) and get a CCW just to carry and be armed - I know I would not do so at this time if I had the choice again as my BI is just beginning with DSS.

In addition you might also unknowningly be picking up bad concealed carry habits, that you will have to "unlearn" during your potential LEO training.
This is good advice- I would just add that no matter where you're at in the process, if you're going to choose to carry the gun 1) do it legally and 2) have a solid reason.

[PEACE]

ATFpoa or others -

Wasn't there a case (or two) of someone walking into an office and shooting some agents? I think it was FBI, but it seems the same thing may have happened to USSS. The point being - just because you are in your comfort zone, bad things can still happen.

Be safe!

[ATFpoa]

ATFpoa or others -

Wasn't there a case (or two) of someone walking into an office and shooting some agents? I think it was FBI, but it seems the same thing may have happened to USSS. The point being - just because you are in your comfort zone, bad things can still happen.

Be safe!
Yes in DC...Two FBI Agents killed, and, I believe one or two DC Metro Detectives killed. All in the office. But you still see agents (probably a majority) using the desk as a holster.

[Eaglearm]

A good example of this: I carry my gun every day at work. I am inside an office for a good deal of the time, and I could never bring myself to leave it in a desk drawer, like some other agents. My first few months at this office, I would have agents ask me: "do you have some operation (warrant) going today?" They automatically assumed that because I was carrying, I had to do something enforcement related. This is the mindset of quite a few 1811's. In my own view, this mind set is more prevalent with bosses. Maybe it is because the street oriented guys stay as working agents, and the admin oriented guys take the management track.

Years ago as a new Detective and in my first week, I carried crap (two cuffs, pager, cell phone, double mag pouch, pocket clip knife, badge,and pistol :) :) ) on my suite and tie belt. My Lt. pulled me into the office and explained the difference between being a street cop and detective. Lesson learned before the act is done. Plus, when pushing paper my back felt much better.

[PEACE]

Yes in DC...Two FBI Agents killed, and, I believe one or two DC Metro Detectives killed. All in the office. But you still see agents (probably a majority) using the desk as a holster.

Yeah, that was the FBI case I was thinking of - thank you sir.

And no backseat driving here on my part - they may have been armed, or they may have secured if that was MetroPD's policy.

But again, that case (and others I can't recall right now) point out the obvious - there is no safe zone; expect it when you least expect it; and it is better to have it and not need it, than not have it and desperately need it.

Be prepared guys/gals.

[Dylan889]

This is all great advise.
I think I might get one, since I do go to the range and hunting a little. I have also had a personal confrintation that could justify getting one.(Family issue, long story)
Althought I will be much less likely to carry at all reading this.
I am still on the fence

[ATFpoa]

Yeah, that was the FBI case I was thinking of - thank you sir.

And no backseat driving here on my part - they may have been armed, or they may have secured if that was MetroPD's policy.

But again, that case (and others I can't recall right now) point out the obvious - there is no safe zone; expect it when you least expect it; and it is better to have it and not need it, than not have it and desperately need it.

Be prepared guys/gals.

You would think that after that incident, that the need to be armed would be obvious, but still some choose not to be. These may be the same people in charge of your hiring decision.

[Dylan889]

Would this look good/bad in the BI?
What kind of thing do they turn you down for in the BI?

[PEACE]

What kind of thing do they turn you down for in the BI? For FBI or others.

Do some research/forum searches Dylan - the FBI guys onboard have labored to explain the many DQ issues the FBI considers. In fact, Moderator Thomas Ackerman recently gave a pearl of wisdom in another thread on this very subject.

[Dylan889]

You would think that after that incident, that the need to be armed would be obvious, but still some choose not to be. These may be the same people in charge of your hiring decision.


I can't believe how naive people can be. I was reading a post on here of why one LEO always carries off duty when he can. He had seen people he had arrested twice when he was out with his family.

[ATFpoa]

Would this look good/bad in the BI?
What kind of thing do they turn you down for in the BI? For FBI or others.

Personally, I don't think it would. But It would draw attention if it came up. And in a background, you don't want any more attention drawn to yourself.

[ATFpoa]

I can't believe how neive people can be. I was reading a post on here of why on LE always carries off duty when he can. He had seen people he had arrested twice when he was out with his family.

Yup..but that's the way it is.

[Frank_Pembleton]

I've had a CCW for the past four years. I don't see why it would ever become an issue in my BI unless I've been running around town drawing down on people.

I too am a "firearms enthusiast". I like to shoot, look at, and buy various firearms. This does not make me a nut, irresponsible, or unstable.

Now if during my FBI background the issue of CCW comes up. Why would I need a valid reason(which I do have BTW) for having it besides that the law(Constitutional as well as State) allows me to carry. Pennsylvania is a shall issue state.

[Reservoir Dog]

This does not make me a nut, irresponsible, or unstable.
My thoughts exactly. There is not a more valid reason for having a CCW permit than for the protection of you or your family's life. If there is an agency out there that would second-guess my judgement or stability because I have a CCW permit......well, that is an agency I would have no desire to work for.

I agree that getting a CCW permit will not help you get hired as an LEO, but nobody here said that it would, and that was not Dylan's orginal question. Having a CCW permit carries great responsibility. I think the vast majority of permit holders understand this, and have no desire to play cop. Hell, I don't want to play cop when I am off duty. If you are still having doubts about the effect of CCW permit on your hiring chances, ask someone from the agency you are interested in, and see what they say.

[Lupey]

The dept I work for allows 1911s for off duty. Many of the officer do carry them.

So far here are the Departments that I know off the issue them:
Seminole TX PD
Petersburg AK PD
Raton NM PD
Ault CO PD
Kerville TX PD
Lake County MT Sheriff
Loveland CO PD
Mentor OH PD
Umatilla WA PD
Whitman City Sheriff
Grey GA PD
Bremfield OH PD
Tacoma WA PD
Effingham County Ga Sheriff's Dept
Whitehall PD PA
Wenatchee Washington PD

Thats just the few that I know off. I bet there are many more out there. There are alot of Departments that may not issue them but allow them.

[Dylan889]

I've had a CCW for the past four years. I don't see why it would ever become an issue in my BI unless I've been running around town drawing down on people.

I too am a "firearms enthusiast". I like to shoot, look at, and buy various firearms. This does not make me a nut, irresponsible, or unstable.

Now if during my FBI background the issue of CCW comes up. Why would I need a valid reason(which I do have BTW) for having it besides that the law(Constitutional as well as State) allows me to carry. Pennsylvania is a shall issue state.

Well said.
I like the "firearms enthusiast", sounds better than "gun nut".
The fack is I will be a "firearms enthusiast" weather I get hired by one of the alphabet agencies or not. I also want the ablity to defend my family outside the confides of my own home.

I can come up with a valid reason aswell, but why??? As long as I don't come accross as the local vigilanty or "wanna-be".
I guess this is politics showing its ugly head.

[ATFpoa]

My thoughts exactly. There is not a more valid reason for having a CCW permit than for the protection of you or your family's life. If there is an agency out there that would second-guess my judgement or stability because I have a CCW permit......well, that is an agency I would have no desire to work for.

By no means do I mean that whole agencies will hold this against you. But, there are some people in any agency who would question the need for a CCW. It is your luck of the draw whether these people will have anything to do with your hiring decision...

I also like the term "Firearms Enthusiast". I was a shooter long before I started in law enforcement, and still shoot in competition outside of work. But in federal law enforcement, I am the exception. A large portion will only go shooting when forced to to qualify.

As for needing to justify getting a CCW...if it comes up in your background, you will most likely be asked about it. It only makes sense to prepare your answer now.

I am not trying to render judgement. If you think you need a CCW, then by all means, get one. But be conscious of the issues that getting one will generate.

Good luck!

[rzaruba]

Any opinions???

Let me just go a bit further.

If I were doing your interview, I'd have no problem with gun questions or a CCW.

If my interview partner were anti, I'd either warn you before hand or tell you to shut up.

DON'T believe the stuff you see on TV. One of the things that surprised me when I signed on over 30 years ago was the extent of anti-gun feelings within the agencies. One thing you DO NOT want to let out during an interview is the perception that you want the job so you can carry a gun.

AFA guns, there will be plenty of guys in the office, young and old, field and management, to whom you can safely talk guns and a lot of other things. And if you hear stuff you don't like, it's probably true.

You are interviewing for a job. The guns and other stuff are there for the convenience of the Government, not you, so that you can do your job. Granted, you may be getting some benefit from it, but your primary benefits are your paychack and your pension. The other stuff is nice, if you get it, but you have to eat first.

Eventually things will stabilize. Other things will take on greater importance in your life. There will be days you love the job, days when you curse the sun and the chirping birds because you have to go to work again. All in all, it will work out fine.

And someday, some young buck will look at you and see a dinosaur and make a comment in substance, "What did that old POS ever do..............?????"

What surprises me is that there were a lot of us who were 24/7, very active, and now that we're gone, the gun comes out when we have to go qualify. Some of the biggest gun buffs who carried 44 mags and 45 Long Colts don't even want to carry any more.

But you know, it's nice to have done it, and even nicer to have survived and have memories of the good old days.

[modareguy]

There are thousands of Special Agents in the U.S. from various federal agencies. Many people think of the FBI, ATF, USSS, and other large agencies. However there are numerous other agencies. Some of those (prior to HR218) did NOT allow off-duty carry. I personally know agents who have to keep their guns locked up while at the office and not on their hip, because of the perception of non-1811's in their office. Sorry, but this is the reality. You already know that having a CCW can't help you get the job, so why do something that could (regardless if it is 100% legal) hurt your chances?

[Dylan889]

......You already know that having a CCW can't help you get the job, so why do something that could (regardless if it is 100% legal) hurt your chances?

That is the $64,000 dollor question. Is it an issue? How subjective are the BI?

[Frank_Pembleton]

That is the $64,000 dollor question. Is it an issue? How subjective are the BI?


Sounds like it depends on the investigator. I highly doubt that having a CCW is a disqualifying factor though. Maybe if the BI is anti they might look at your background harder to DQ you.

[jmat1980]

I too have heard that having a CCW with no "valid" reason may hurt your chances of getting on. The local dept where I used to live did not "like" to hire guys that already had their permit for whatever reason. I would agree that if you can wait, than wait. Once you get on somewhere you will most likely have off-duty carry or a ccw. Why jeapordize something this important??

[universible]

Ok, look at it this way...

You say you want a CCW because you can, and are into guns. Ok, valid enough

You also say that you have a family issue that makes you want to get a gun...ok.

Taking into consideration that a CCW *might* harm your consideration for a LE job...if you're only carrying a gun because you can, maybe you should reconsider your priorities.

If you want to carry because of a family problem...maybe you should seek help. Carrying a gun isn't a deterrent from confrontation. It is a tool used to equalize or neutralize a threat during a confrontation. You don't pull a gun on someone with the intent to threaten them...or I say, you shouldn't. I wouldn't...and I don't know any agency that would stand behind you for doing so.

I see it as an issue of priorities. If you are committed to getting this job, then do whatever you need to do to get it. I'm all for lawful citizens carrying firearms, but it isn't going to be black and white...you might have to make some decisions based on the ultimate goal.

My .02 before heading home.

Ted

[Dylan889]

Buying a new handgun for target purposes or home defense (regardless of make/model) is one thing. But spending hundreds on a handgun specifically for CCW that you will most likely never be agency authorized to carry off-duty is a waste....

That is good advise. I will definitly consider that.

[Brettkazcop]

Ok, look at it this way...

You say you want a CCW because you can, and are into guns. Ok, valid enough

You also say that you have a family issue that makes you want to get a gun...ok.

Taking into consideration that a CCW *might* harm your consideration for a LE job...if you're only carrying a gun because you can, maybe you should reconsider your priorities.

If you want to carry because of a family problem...maybe you should seek help. Carrying a gun isn't a deterrent from confrontation. It is a tool used to equalize or neutralize a threat during a confrontation. You don't pull a gun on someone with the intent to threaten them...or I say, you shouldn't. I wouldn't...and I don't know any agency that would stand behind you for doing so.

I see it as an issue of priorities. If you are committed to getting this job, then do whatever you need to do to get it. I'm all for lawful citizens carrying firearms, but it isn't going to be black and white...you might have to make some decisions based on the ultimate goal.

My .02 before heading home.

Ted

Good post!

No offense Dylan, but it seems to me that you are listening selectively to the different posts. Many of those currently in the application process are telling you "I don't see a problem with it...Constitution says so and my state agrees!"

While some of the actual 1811's that are posting and trying to help you out... warning you of possible anti-gun feelings within the hiring process and agencies. They are also warning you about stereotypes of some applicants, some just wanting the power of a gun on their hip or that neat looking badge.

Personally if I was applying for an 1811 job, I know who I would listen to.

Like the post above stated "Carrying a gun is not a deterrent from confrontation." I am not sure of the extent of your family problems, but I am assuming you have not had a deadly force encounter between them in the past. Get an order of protection immediately, a good cell phone to carry around with you and some pepper spray. You will hear from most of the officers here on this board, our most effective weapon off duty can sometimes be our cell phone.

Once you get on the job and you are putting away major criminals for extended periods of stay in the big house, that weapon makes a lot of sense to carry off duty - since you are making a lot of bad guys not happy. If you only want to carry because you can right now - it may be more of a liability than it is worth. If you feel you truly need it, and your state allows CCW, then by all means do what you need to do! Do what you will with the information provided to you by those nice enough to post for you.

Kaz

[Brettkazcop]

Deleted double post

[Time Traveller]

I was not aware that your agency could dictate what you carry off-duty on a state issued CCW permit. If you are carrying off-duty on your LE badge and creds, that is a different story. If you are carrying on your CCW permit, your are legally carrying as a private citizen, not an LEO. Are there specific agencies out there that have this kind of restriction?

I can offer this....if your carrying your duty weapon (or an approved weapon) that your qualified with by your agency and you get into a legit shooting situation...your agency will back you up, handle legal issues etc....

If your carrying your tricked out Springfield 1911 etc... with the laser sight and the widget that wipes your butt when you pull the trigger, and you get into a shoot situation, it was also a legit one. You get sued by the poor grieving relative of the dead or wounded guy...when the agency makes the final call they may say..."good shoot with an unapproved weapon...your on your own." Make sure you carry plenty of liability insurance.

CCW's are easy to obtain in some states, hard in others...if there is a need, that's great, but once you carry the badge, you will always be held to standard higher than those without. Why complicate the issue.

Just my .02

[ATF SAC]

Thanks, Time Traveler, as I was scrolling through this thread I was looking for what you posted. Other than for recreational shooting, you want to have what the agency has trained and certified you on otherwise you can be taking yourself into personal liability. Might as well get it early, once you are carrying a badge you cannot retreat into the lesser standard applied to a civilian with a CCW permit. You will always be held to a duty standard and should try to make adherence to that standard easy to establish.

[PEACE]

Just to add to TT's point - there is a sound tactical reason for carrying the same platform off-duty as you do on-duty, in addition to the liability issue.

The greater the degree of difference between those platforms, the higher the probability you will have foibles during an altercation (be it reloading, safety (dis)engagement, target acquisition, etc).

Just my .02

[Dylan889]

Good post!

No offense Dylan, but it seems to me that you are listening selectively to the different posts. Many of those currently in the application process are telling you "I don't see a problem with it...Constitution says so and my state agrees!"

While some of the actual 1811's that are posting and trying to help you out... warning you of possible anti-gun feelings within the hiring process and agencies. They are also warning you about stereotypes of some applicants, some just wanting the power of a gun on their hip or that neat looking badge.

Personally if I was applying for an 1811 job, I know who I would listen to.

Like the post above stated "Carrying a gun is not a deterrent from confrontation." I am not sure of the extent of your family problems, but I am assuming you have not had a deadly force encounter between them in the past. Get an order of protection immediately, a good cell phone to carry around with you and some pepper spray. You will hear from most of the officers here on this board, our most effective weapon off duty can sometimes be our cell phone.

Once you get on the job and you are putting away major criminals for extended periods of stay in the big house, that weapon makes a lot of sense to carry off duty - since you are making a lot of bad guys not happy. If you only want to carry because you can right now - it may be more of a liability than it is worth. If you feel you truly need it, and your state allows CCW, then by all means do what you need to do! Do what you will with the information provided to you by those nice enough to post for you.

Kaz

I guess I am just ranting a bit. But I am a little ticked off that this would, should or could be an issue :sick:.
Looking neagatively at a CCW strikes me as bad if not worse than looking at someone's political party affiliation or religion :argue:, (as long as you are talking Republican/Democart or something mainstreem).

Everyone, Thanks for the Advise.
I will look at getting a new Firearm since I am a "Firearms Enthusiest", but not getting a CCW, while in the hiring process.

P.S. Does it show I am a proud member of the NRA :D LOL

[ATF SAC]

The issue is not having a CCW permit; the issue gets to be why. Lot's of great answers and a couple of troublesome ones. Troublesome ones are about the folks who are just twitchin for the opportunity to defend something by blowing somebody away. Got a little hero, martyr thing going on that does not set well with professional le types. Hypervigilence is a symptom of bad things happening and not something an agency is looking to hire.

Same time, 'bout a thousand really good and neutral answers, including I am a barrel sucker cum laude and often transport expensive and rare guns to shows and such. Just stay away from "Evil waits around the next corner and I do not want to miss any opportunity to pop caps at it."

[Eaglearm]

The issue is not having a CCW permit; the issue gets to be why. Lot's of great answers and a couple of troublesome ones. Troublesome ones are about the folks who are just twitchin for the opportunity to defend something by blowing somebody away. Got a little hero, martyr thing going on that does not set well with professional le types. Hypervigilence is a symptom of bad things happening and not something an agency is looking to hire.

Same time, 'bout a thousand really good and neutral answers, including I am a barrel sucker cum laude and often transport expensive and rare guns to shows and such. Just stay away from "Evil waits around the next corner and I do not want to miss any opportunity to pop caps at it."

By far the best post to answer the question at hand. Daylan889, don't be in a hurry to carry a piece of steal. Although some of us carry and we do so for various reason, its just not as glamorous as you would think.

Don't let the CDI (chicks dig it) Factor dictate your life style. Trust me, the CDI Factor does not play here.

This piece of steal can bring more headaches than what it's worth. Even when you are 100% in the trigger pull zone, its no fun having to explain yourself to 12 civilians who do not know the first thing about law enforcement and have the absolute power to decide how the rest of your life will be played out. ;) ;) Trust me been there done that crap, its no cup of tea. Play it safe and wait till you get you badge and creds.

[krellum]

Having a CCW permit carries great responsibility. I think the vast majority of permit holders understand this, and have no desire to play cop.

This goes along with what Jack said, but most of the people I've dealt with in a professional capacity who had CCW's (or who wanted them) were NOT those with a great deal of responsibility; more often than not, they WERE the type of guys who were simply wannabe cops. If you get other 1811's on an interview panel with experiences like this, it may not go well for you.

TT makes a great point, also. A gun is just a tool: personally, I'd rather carry the tool that my agency gave me and be covered. Just something to think about.

k

[Dylan889]

Alright, Alright, you guys convinced me. It is a bad idea.
But how subjective is the BI??
I thought the main scrutiny came from the interview then the poly??

[Time Traveller]

Alright, Alright, you guys convinced me. It is a bad idea.
But how subjective is the BI for 1811s??? Spacifically the FBI??
I thought the main scrutiny came from Phase II interview then the poly??
Specifically. . .we wash alot of people in the background. . . something comes up, it causes more questions to be asked, then something else. . .lots of people waiting in the wings. . . you're gone. Don't make the assumption that you pass Phase II and your in...you've crossed a number of hurdles, but in, your not.

Somedays the number of letters rescinding the conditional offer you get once you pass Phase II is pretty big.

[Reservoir Dog]

Well, I am glad that my experiences with CCW permit holders have been much better than others have had. Of all the non-LEO permit holders I know, not a single one got the permit because they want to play cop, and they are very aware of the responsibility it carries. Also, never heard of an incident locally of a permit holder who got into trouble for going beyond the purpose of the permit. I am sure they are out there; bad apples in every group. I am also a big advocate of carrying your duty weapon off-duty. I carry mine all the time. Always good to have your agency behind you.

That being said, it still surprises me that (absent some bad behavior on the part of the permit holder) this would be such an issue during the LEO hiring process. In all my years of LE, I have never heard of this being an issue, until this thread started. Most people seem to say don't get the CCW permit because you might be perceived as being some cop wannabe. Almost like saying don't get a car because you might be perceived as a reckless driver. Unfortunate that someone could be axed from the hiring process for the simple reason that they have a CCW permit for personal protection, without any specific knowledge of wrongdoing.

However, since it seems to be problem, I will yield to my esteemed colleagues. I have to say that this has been an excellent thread with a lot of very good information. Be safe out there.

[DoD NucE]

ATFSAC, I'm glad that you said what you said. The issue of gun ownership actually came up in my ATF interview. Simply put, during the hello how do you do? What do you know about us and how do you know it? portion of the interview, I actually said that as a firearms collector I was aware of the ATF's mission of keeping guns out of the hands of bad guys. They really didn't go into any more detail than that and I thought that was good, I'm glad I didn't deep six myself because I said that I collected guns.


On another note, I wouldn't hesitate to get a 1911 of some sort if you want a nice shooter. My dept.'s off duty weapon policy is thankfully very lenient and I personally carry a Wilson Protector off duty. I own a Kimber TLE RL/II that I enjoy as well. If you want a 1911 I would say go for it, there's a reason why they still sell so well after nearly 100 years.

[ATF SAC]

It's faded a bit, but the ATF I joined sponsored competitive pistol teams and probably pound for pound weighs in pretty high on gun strokes per capita (it's really not counterintuitive in spite of a lot of lobbyist propaganda that the agents and inspectors are anti-gun - some probably are a little, some are clearly not, but nothing that alters adherence to agency policy and the law).

I appreciate the responses to my earlier post, especially the understanding that being interested in guns or having a CCW permit are not per se issues for anybody, but would naturally lead to perfectly relevant questions as to whether you may be in a distinct minority (but existing minority) of nut jobs who believe they are Sir Lancelot or whether you hold such beliefs either pro or anti gun as to create a problem in carrying out the mandated responsibilities of the agency. There are just plenty of neutral answers that let everybody move along. For example in Connecticut (at least at one time) almost every company had a pistol team and every shooter had a CCW because it was required to carry a firearm in a motor vehicle. Yawn, yawn, yawn.

Once interview a person for a support position who stated that her interest in ATF was tied to ridding America of the evil of guns. Thanks for your interest, sorry that we are selecting someone else.

[Dylan889]

Specifically. . .we wash alot of people in the background. . . something comes up, it causes more questions to be asked, then something else. . .lots of people waiting in the wings. . . you're gone. Don't make the assumption that you pass Phase II and your in...you've crossed a number of hurdles, but in, your not.

Somedays the number of letters rescinding the conditional offer you get once you pass Phase II is pretty big.

WOW, This was all very informative!!!!!!!!!!!!
Thanks.
I don't have great need for one now, so I won't.