Sexual Orientation

[calif75]

I'm surprised that this question has never been brought up, so let me be the first. During a BI it seems likely that an individual's sexual orientation would be discovered. Obviously, this is not an issue for many applicants but a person's personal life, when kept personal, shouldn't be an issue. Meaning that what I do in the bedroom (as long as it's legal) is my business. However, it is very likely that discrimination could occur in these situations. Suggestions, experiences, comments? (I am well aware that many people do not approve of alternative lifestyles and I'm hoping that the members of this forum will be able to handle this question in a mature manner.)

[HK_precop]

Discrimination in this instance is difficult if not almost impossible to prove since you could be disqualified and a dept would not be obligated to tell you the details. A lawsuit or anything like that would be almost nearly impossible to win as well. The only way, is if someone on the 'inside' were to come forward with evidence confirming a pattern of discrimination etc..

I know there are a few openly homosexual officers that work for SFPD. Saw it on a cable documentary once..so obviously if those openly gay officers got hired then i'm sure the process is more than fair.


Originally posted by calif75
I'm surprised that this question has never been brought up, so let me be the first. During a BI it seems likely that an individual's sexual orientation would be discovered. Obviously, this is not an issue for many applicants but a person's personal life, when kept personal, shouldn't be an issue. Meaning that what I do in the bedroom (as long as it's legal) is my business. However, it is very likely that discrimination could occur in these situations. Suggestions, experiences, comments? (I am well aware that many people do not approve of alternative lifestyles and I'm hoping that the members of this forum will be able to handle this question in a mature manner.)

[dano]

I concur with HK. You would have to establish a pattern. Without a snitch it would be hard to do.

With all the secrecy behind the DQ they can come up with any BS reason if they are pressed for one.

I personally think this is just one of many reasons they should have to give an explicit reason for DQing someone. The liability issues aside, if candidates are to subject themselves to intense scrutiny then I feal it only fair and reasonable that they are informed of the specific reason, in writing, for their DQ (not simply 'You failed the BG,' but 'You failed BG because of X, Y, Z'). their must be a stop gap that could facilitate this and stem frivilous lawsuits.

Anyway, this site has links to gay and lesbian police associations. Their members must know better than anyone the hurdles and pitfalls of bias and prejudice in LE and, more importantly, how to overcome them. I think it would help if you contacted them.

http://www.officer.com/gay.htm

Good Luck

[FedsForMe]

You have hit a nerve with me. It is very awkward to have a back ground investigator come at you with "I see here on your paperwork that you listed another woman on your checking account, who would she be?" And when you explain to him that she is your significant other he starts to get nervous, unconfortable and saying stuff like "this will have no affect on the out come of this investigation". Well it does. And these smaller LE agencies don't have a clause stating they wont discriminate. The Feds do, but whether they abide by it or not, who knows. I have been called into the Chiefs office of an agency I had applied with and was openly confronted about my lifestyle. Then I was told I was no longer being concidered for employment with them. There was not a thing that I could do because back then it was not against the law for them to do that. The background I went through with Customs here recently was a little awkward too. The investigator was very professional through it all. I explained that I was very "open" and had nothing to hide. His concern was if anyone could they and blackmail me. I told him good luck, theres no one in this world that I care about and have any concern about that does not know that I am gay. And theres plenty of people I don't really care for that know also. I have nothing to hide. I asked the agency I'm with now this question: "Can you tell by the way I do my job that I am gay?" If anything I do my job better than most because I don't want the fact that I am gay to be an issue. Good luck to you on your job search.:cool:

[SP20]

My BI asked me outfront if I ever had sex with someone of the same sex. Don't know if this is what you want to hear but I thought I would let you know how some departments approach the subject.

[Sam]

I really feel like I'm sticking my neck out here on this one, but since you others had the courage to speak up I guess I will.
I'd just like to say that I have no doubt that I've been DQ'ed because I'm gay.
For a smaller agency, I had a BI do a home interview, and she asked me what my relationship was to the person I stated on the BI packet that I lived with. I said that he and I have been partners (domestic) for about 2 years.

She then asked to see the bedroom.

I was floored. The same kind of BS has continued with other departments. I've just decided to pursue another career, and apply later in my life when I guess I'm seen as less of a liability.
I encourage other minority members, any ethinicity, on this list to tell their story.

The police profession is not as professional or mature as most people would like to think it is.

s

[JSavage]

I take your implication to heart Sam. Unforunately, I think your wrong. A very good friend of mine is a reserve officer with a department that only supports 3 full time officers and 7 reserves. He's gay, he bought a house with his "partner" , he has lived with him for 3 years, he has worked for 2 different PD's and never had anyone make issue of it. He's now in the final process with a SO that carries 1200 deputies and 750 CO's. He hasn't hidden anything and they haven't been disrespectful to him. They looked in every room in his house and didn't seem to care.

I guess what I'm getting at is that, this guy is a law enforcement officer. I'm not, I've been passed over by a few departments. I'm not gay. I live in the middle of redneck Maine. I find what your claiming to be unfounded by my personal experiences. I think that you were not qualified. Unfortunately, I'm not very qualified either. I'm not going to whine about it, I'm not going to accuse the W.A.S.P. blue wall of silence of hating me because I don't live on an even numbered side of the street. I'm going to keep applying and hope that at some point I get accepted. If I don't.... oh well.

Don't make general comments and state them as fact. It's very unprofesional

[SP20]

I agree with Jsavage here. Although it may seem like he wasn't hired because he was "gay", doesn't mean that is the real reason. Maybe it is, but I have a hard time suspecting this to be the cause. I have done this same thing in the past. What I mean is , take the thing I think disqualifies me most and make it seem like that is the reason, when I know deep down inside that I wasn't picked because I was unqualified or I wasn't the type of officer htey were looking for. Just keep trying!

[calif75]

I completely understand where you are coming from when you say that being gay may not be the reason for DQ. I am also aware that many people fear that "special" interest groups of any type will try to abuse their minority status with false claims. Sexual Orientation is not a good reason in and of itself to DQ someone. Though if I was a BI and uncomfortable with the idea of working with someone that I knew was gay, I might look a little harder to find a "better" reason to DQ. I am sure I could find something because no one is perfect. For this reason, I would prefer not to disclose my sexual orientation to my BI.

Is it standard practice to ask whether or not you've slept with somone of the same sex? Or question the relationship with your "roommate"?

A BI can ask to see your bedroom? You've got to be kidding me!

[Birky]

Well to be perfectly honest with you calif75 in some state there are laws on the books (while not normally actively enforced) that prohibit same sex sexual relationships. There are also laws that prohibit opposite sex sexual relationships outside of marriage. In Virginia there are laws that prohibit any type of sexual relations other than the straight sex even between married couples. So yes a BI can ask you those types of questions and DQ you for them. It may not be right and it may not be fair but as of right now that is the law. I can feel for your situation but as long as those laws are on the books it might be difficult for you to find employment right now. I know that in California in certain cities they don't care one way or the other San Fransico comes to mind so you might try there. Don't get discouraged just keep trying.:bounce:

[RoscoeRuhl]

I'll agree that what you do within the privacy of your home should be your business. At the point in time where you make it known (in any way, shape, form or fashion) what your business is, that's when the problems arise. Sexual orientation shouldn't be a consideration when it comes to hiring and as a matter of fact it's discrimination! Remember that anything that's not acceptable by normal standards is going to be considered contrary by the majority. The bottom line is that you're entitled to do what you want and with choices come consequences. When you make a choice, be prepared to deal with the consequences.

Have a great day!

[calif75]

Roscoe,

The bottom line is that you're entitled to do what you want and with choices come consequences. When you make a choice, be prepared to deal with the consequences.

A popular misconception of those individuals that fit into the "normal" category. I certainly hope that you are not implying that I made the choice to prefer same-sex relationships. The choice is not any different than prefering to be involved in opposite-sex relationships. Therefore, being judged based on a one's sexual orientation is discrimination. The only choice I have is whether I want to voluntarily disclose this information with my BI. I personally do not, but that doesn't mean he won't find out anyway. This creates the potential for a more creative reason for DQ. Consequences to my choice? What choice?

[JSavage]

I'm not trying to sound contrary or inflamatory but...

You do have a choice. You may not be able to choose how you feel, but you can choose not to act on those feelings. I say this to your benifit; If your not "involved" in a sexual relationship of any kind, you don't have anything to answer for. It's not lying, it's creating a different truth. Of course this doesn't affect the past but.... It's an Idea.

[FedsForMe]

Sexual orientation has never been about a choice. No one would choose to live a life where they are ridiculed, harrassed, persecuted, discriminated, and hated so much for living the life that they were placed on this earth to live. No, it is not about choice or living a lie. It is about being true to oneself and actually loving oneself enough to be honest to everyone you come in contact with. Did you choose to be the way you are? If you did then you're probably not honestly happy with yourself. I live a life where not only am I happy but all of my family members are happy. I refuse to live a lie for anyone. "The best thing you can do in your life is to stop lying, be honest, be true to yourself, and what is important in your life." There were never truer words printed. Ignorance is not bliss, it is stupid.

DOES IT MATTER?
My father asked if I am gay
I asked Does it matter?
He said No not really
I said Yes.
He said get out of my life
I guess it mattered.
My boss asked if I am gay
I asked Does it matter?
He said No not really
I told him Yes.
He said You're fired, faggot
I guess it mattered.
My lover asked Do you love me?
I asked Does it matter?
She said Yes.
I told him I love you
She said Let me hold you in my arms
For the first time in my life something matters.
My God asked me Do you love yourself?
I said Does it matter?
He said Yes.
I said How can I love myself? I am Gay
He said That is what I made you
Nothing again will ever matter

Anonymous high school student from Growing Up Gay/Growing Up Lesbian: A Literary Anthology

[sheepdog]

I have to applaud fedsforme and calif75 for their comments. Your both very brave people. Homosexuality (probably next ten years) will soon be proven to have more to with the formation of the brain then socialization or a chosen sexuality.

There is a book that tries to explain male and female differences as well as deciding factors on sexuality. The book is called Brainsex and is written by PHD in Genetics (Anne Moir) and British Journalist (David Jessel). They also have written a book called A MIND TO CRIME about genetic links to deviant or criminal behavior.

Sexual Orientation (origins of) will eventually be understood widely but not for awhile (especially in the Police Force). In the an area like Law Enforcement it is hard to convince people who are dedicated to a 'free will' principle that many people have no choice in some situations (sexual orientation). Being in the situation that you are both in also motivates you to look and find educated answers. Heterosexuals do not have that luxury most of the time. We have sexual interests that are held by a vast majority and verify our belief that they are the only ones to have. There is no reason to go looking for answers cause we've never been 'out of the norm'. Just an attempt at an explanation for you.

What ever happens sexually between to consenting ADULTS should not be an employers business and in my opinion should never be illegal. You will always encounter people that do not have this same belief. I imagine you are both use to it by now though.

Like others have said, it should not be a DQ. Hopefully that is not what will happen! Good luck either way to both of you in your respective law enforcement careers.

Sheepdog

[JSavage]

I appologize if I was misunderstood. My point was that if you abstain from sexual behavior, then most questions that are asked can be answered no. I'm not saying that you should pretend not to be Gay. When asked a question along the lines of 'do you engage in sexual acts with members of your own gender' you can answer no. It's not being untrue to yourself, it's trying to even the playing field without lying.

I am opposed to homosexuality; I think it is wrong. I don't however, think that homosexual people are bad, nasty, perverse, or any of the other things that people say. I think that discrimination against homosexuals is wrong; it is not a condition that affects those around you, only your personal lives. I say if abstainance can get you in, do it. I wish that all I had to do to become a LEO was to abstain from sex during my BI period!

[Bravo8]

"To thyself, be true"

[RoscoeRuhl]

calif75,

Having carefully read my response to your initial post and your response, I can't find anywhere that I had indicated or inferred that it applied to anyone's specific situation and certainly not you! My comment was general in nature and supportive that discrimination for sexual orientation wasn't allowed. It doesn't matter what the subject is, people make choices on a variety of issues and govern their path of conduct based on these choices. The majority determines what the acceptable conduct is going to be and the consequences are the results of an ability or inability to conform to what's considered acceptable. I thought I was supportive of your position that one's personal business is just that and further, that once you make known your business to others it should not be a suprise that some difficulties may be encountered. Personally, I'm not the one going thru the hiring process. Based on your subsequent writing, your dilema appears to be one where you have the choice to provide the information to the BI, which you "personally do not". Your actions either way will have a consequence. Point made!

You were hoping for mature, intelligent exchange of thoughts on this topic and my intention was to do my best to oblige! There was no mention to anyone's specific situation and a general opinion. Perhaps you could read my post again and find a specific point where I referred to you!

Have a great day!

[dano]

I can't beleive what I am reading!!!

JSavage: Now a candidate should abstain from sexual acts with another consenting adult just to become a cop!!! What next? Should candidates be castrated at their medical exams!!! Don't you see...the crime is the question, not any answer one might give! How can you let the system off the hook so easily?

I also disagree with Roscoe's premise too. Do you ever show public affection for your wife? Do you ever hold hands and walk in the park? If so, how dare you flaunt your affections like that!!! You breeders are all alike!!!LOL

It’s O.K. to be gay so long as you do not go public with it? That is like saying it’s O.K. to be human just don’t act human when anyone is watching! FedsForMe is right – people do not choose their sexual orientation any more than they choose to have freckles. Even if they did choose it, though, who cares? We are talking about consenting adults here!

It is not people’s 'behavior' (in this case having the audacity to love someone the majority disapproves of) that is the problem here. It is the idiocy of the laws attempting to govern it and the prevailing attitude of ignoramuses and zealots who created those laws (those who blindly enforce those laws also have dirt on their hands). What tenant gives a democratic society the right to govern such behavior to begin with...the Majority???

Wrong.

This unfortunate quality of modern democracy is what is known as the ‘Tyranny of the Majority.' Forget basic human rights!!! Most people disagree with your perspective so, ‘Sucks for you!’

Nonsense!!! The Constitution exist to protect us from this. The majority doesn’t have the right to infringe on individual liberty and its LE should not be an instrument to enforce its ever shifting whims.