View Full Version : please advise: Italy-born member
hi guys,
It's nice to be a new member to this forum.Thank you all for sharing your experiences.
I have a question for you guys.
I have just turned 35, I have been a us citizen for the past year( I am italian, double passport), I have a BA in business earned in Italy and an MBA (3.8) earned here, and my work experience is in sales and Marketing both here and in Europe. I am fluent in Italian , spanish and I know some portuguese.None of my relatives except for my wife are us citizens nor residents( they all live in italy). My dream would be to work for the FBI or the CIA. My question to you is:do you think I can have a shot at it or any of the above disqualifies me?( being Italian, family members overseas etc.)
A sincere answer would be greatly appreciated
Max
Pfrankow
07-27-2005, 09:30
I'll take a crack at your question. First of, you can always apply and see what happens. Some agencies may have policies in place that require you to be a citizen for a specific period of time.
I was born in Poland, came to the U.S. in the late 80's, but did not become a citizen until 1999 as an adult. I applied for the CIA about a month after I took the oath. I made it almost all the way through- got the thin letter after my 2nd set of interviews, about 6 hours of strange tests and a psycholoigical interview. So either I am nuts, or not nuts enough. So just applying should not be a problem, unless specifically noted.
Where you will run into issues will be during your background investigation. At that phase, your dual citizenship may become an issue and most agencies will require that you renounce your non-US citizenship. Close connections to reletives living abroad may be a problem. Basically, the agency is looking at any evidence of either a foreign preferrence, or foreign influence. Is there something in your background that would cause you to pick Italy over the U.S.- or- could your foreign contacts influence you to do this? That's the jist of that issue.
Any issues are usually reviewed against any mitigating factors. I have foreign born parents and a brother, but all have lived here for over 15 years, my parents had a son born here, my brother is also married to a US citizen with a son born here, I am getting married in October, all have sucesfull careers here in the states, and parents own property here. It still makes for a complicated background but easier than having a mom or dad who is still living in Poland, and just happens to work for the intelligence services.
In your case, I suspect you will have a long and complicated background. You will almost certainly have to ditch the Italian citizenship and send your Italian passport back to the embassy. But, the upside is that your relatives are not North Korean or Iranian.
Like I said at the beginning of this long post- you can always apply and see what happens. Good luck.
U.S. Naturalization Law requires that once a former national of another country naturalizes and becomes a U.S. citizen then you are then required to renounce citizenship of that country. Those of us who work for CBP run into this situation alot. As far as for Fed employment I work with many people who are naturalized U.S. citizens (very fine people I might add). And atleast from my legacy agency's perspective (INS) it wasn't a very big deal. Also in the job posting some require residentcy in the U.S. for a certain period of time so this requirement could preclude some natural born U.S. citizens from consideration from employment. So, my advice would be to look at the job posting carefully to see if you meet the criteria. Happy Hunting!!! :)
The first issue that stands out to me is your age. Your background investigation will take a while and you will most likey not make it through the process while you are 35 years old which is the cutoff. Sorry to rain on your parade. You could still pursue it and see what happens.
LongTermGoal
07-27-2005, 09:56
The first issue that stands out to me is your age. Your background investigation will take a while and you will most likey not make it through the process while you are 35 years old which is the cutoff. Sorry to rain on your parade. You could still pursue it and see what happens.
Actually 37 is the cutoff, but given the original poster's background, an investigation will probably take more time than most backgrounds. Go ahead and apply, what do you have to lose?
Guys,
thank you for the prompt responses.
regarding the double passport issue by law I can I have two passports and I am not required to renounce, but I understand that this might become an issue with the agencies.
Regarding my age limit, I know that the cutoff for being an agent is 37, but I was more interested in the IA position with the FBI( no age limits).
My real concern is the fact that all my relatives, most of my contacts etc. are in Italy. Although I have never been arrested, done drugs etc., I tend to believe that they would drop my application just because my BI would be a lenghty and complicated one. Do u think this might be the case?
Although I have never been arrested, done drugs etc., I tend to believe that they would drop my application just because my BI would be a lenghty and complicated one. Do u think this might be the case?
The worst thing for you to do is not to apply. Go ahead and give it a shot. My situation is a little different than yours because I was born in the U.S., but all of my family lives in a foreign country and they were able to complete my background without any major stepbacks. I am currently on the footsteps of the academy as I am just awaiting a class date. Apply, you have nothing to loose.
Dave1068
07-27-2005, 10:25
Before you get too involved in doing the paperwork, I'd call the FBI and CIA and ask to speak to their security clearance/suitability office and inquire about your background.
Good luck
Guys,
thank you for the prompt responses.
regarding the double passport issue by law I can I have two passports and I am not required to renounce, but I understand that this might become an issue with the agencies.
Regarding my age limit, I know that the cutoff for being an agent is 37, but I was more interested in the IA position with the FBI( no age limits).
My real concern is the fact that all my relatives, most of my contacts etc. are in Italy. Although I have never been arrested, done drugs etc., I tend to believe that they would drop my application just because my BI would be a lenghty and complicated one. Do u think this might be the case?
Sir the United States doesnot recognize dual citizenship. So you may be precluded from employment because of your dual nationality. I get this on the best of sources.
Thank you for your information.But my understanding is that I can be a citizen of two countries ( as many naturalized americans.)
I look into that and even my US passport defines "dual citizens".
While at the Oath cerimony we were told we could keep our other citizenship, and when I had an inteview for the Foreign Service Officer position I was told that lots of officers hold two passports, as that was my original concern. I understand that with the agencies it might be different 'cause it is a matter of allegiance to the US.Anyway as I stated before my real concern is the BI.
It might be too much of a pain in the butt for them to go through such an extensive investigation. I think I will apply directly with CIA as my overseas experience ( 27 years out of 35) might be of interest. Any takes on that?
http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_1753.html
Dual Nationality
The concept of dual nationality means that a person is a citizen of two countries at the same time. Each country has its own citizenship laws based on its own policy.Persons may have dual nationality by automatic operation of different laws rather than by choice. For example, a child born in a foreign country to U.S. citizen parents may be both a U.S. citizen and a citizen of the country of birth.
A U.S. citizen may acquire foreign citizenship by marriage, or a person naturalized as a U.S. citizen may not lose the citizenship of the country of birth.U.S. law does not mention dual nationality or require a person to choose one citizenship or another. Also, a person who is automatically granted another citizenship does not risk losing U.S. citizenship. However, a person who acquires a foreign citizenship by applying for it may lose U.S. citizenship. In order to lose U.S. citizenship, the law requires that the person must apply for the foreign citizenship voluntarily, by free choice, and with the intention to give up U.S. citizenship.
Intent can be shown by the person's statements or conduct.The U.S. Government recognizes that dual nationality exists but does not encourage it as a matter of policy because of the problems it may cause. Claims of other countries on dual national U.S. citizens may conflict with U.S. law, and dual nationality may limit U.S. Government efforts to assist citizens abroad. The country where a dual national is located generally has a stronger claim to that person's allegiance.
However, dual nationals owe allegiance to both the United States and the foreign country. They are required to obey the laws of both countries. Either country has the right to enforce its laws, particularly if the person later travels there.Most U.S. citizens, including dual nationals, must use a U.S. passport to enter and leave the United States. Dual nationals may also be required by the foreign country to use its passport to enter and leave that country. Use of the foreign passport does not endanger U.S. citizenship.
CatFight
07-27-2005, 11:57
I also heard (although indirectly) that you cannot have dual nationalities while in the FBI/CIA. I think that they have you renounce as a way of showing your true allegiance to the US. I could be wrong, but I believe that there is also fear that if you are a citizen of another country, there is always the possibility of getting drafted to fight their wars. But curiously, you should apply anyway. Don't let ifs and what ifs prevent you.
By the way, the article that you posted concerns anyone who becomes a US citizen. It does not make reference to those who'd like to pursue a high-security career within the US Govt.
cpwclarke
07-27-2005, 12:18
Sir the United States doesnot recognize dual citizenship. So you may be precluded from employment because of your dual nationality. I get this on the best of sources.
The US does not advocate dual citizenship, but they do allow it as maxmaxy's next post explained.
I can tell you this - you will be required to renounce your other citizenship if you want to join the federal law enforcement ranks. Not sure about the IA position though.
I was told by both FBI and DEA that I would have to renounce my Canadian citizenship (which I have now done) in order to become an agent.
Actually 37 is the cutoff, but given the original poster's background, an investigation will probably take more time than most backgrounds. Go ahead and apply, what do you have to lose?
Actually, I think the cutoff for CIA IS 35 - for many other agencies in LE, it is indeed 37.
But agreeing with many of the posters, time is not on your side - however, you NEVER know until you begin the process.
Goodluck to you.
TroubleT-roy
07-27-2005, 13:59
As a matter of fact, I suggest that you go ahead and apply today !! You need to make sure you get through the process before you turn 37. The process for FBI takes at least a year.
hi guys,
It's nice to be a new member to this forum.Thank you all for sharing your experiences.
I have a question for you guys.
I have just turned 35, I have been a us citizen for the past year( I am italian, double passport), I have a BA in business earned in Italy and an MBA (3.8) earned here, and my work experience is in sales and Marketing both here and in Europe. I am fluent in Italian , spanish and I know some portuguese.None of my relatives except for my wife are us citizens nor residents( they all live in italy). My dream would be to work for the FBI or the CIA. My question to you is:do you think I can have a shot at it or any of the above disqualifies me?( being Italian, family members overseas etc.)
A sincere answer would be greatly appreciated
Max
The US does not advocate dual citizenship, but they do allow it as maxmaxy's next post explained.
I can tell you this - you will be required to renounce your other citizenship if you want to join the federal law enforcement ranks. Not sure about the IA position though.
I was told by both FBI and DEA that I would have to renounce my Canadian citizenship (which I have now done) in order to become an agent.
Well, you may renounce it, but the other country may not recognize the renunciation.
There were a number of guys when I was working who maintained both US and Irish passports with no problems.
I comes down to the agency.
You should not have a lot of problems absent your second nationality being an unfriendly country, or if you take affirmative action to claim the second nationality.
electra1978
07-27-2005, 14:07
It's important to remember that there are no hard and fast rules regarding dual nationality and securing a job with an intelligence agency. Decisions are often made on a case by case basis. Many agencies are now recognizing the value of a person holding a second passport especially for those in the clandestine service.
The two biggest loyalty questions that will have to be addressed are 1) Have you/or do you have any intention of voting in that country's elections? and 2) Have you or do you have any intent to serve in that nation's military?
After reviewing the applicant's case, the security officer will make the decision whether the individual's nationality poses a threat or not. In many cases, the applicant will not have to relinquish their citizenship, but will be required to sign an agreement that he or she will not do any of the above.
A friend of mine went through that experience and she was not required to give up her other passport.
If I'm not mistaken, the person will have to undergo more frequent background checks than other individuals.
cpwclarke
07-27-2005, 14:26
Well, you may renounce it, but the other country may not recognize the renunciation.
I was told I had to renounce before my background could be started, and I had to submit copies of the paperwork I sent to the Canadian government. Not sure how Canada is going to not recognize it, when I filled out their forms to renounce it, surrended my certificate of citizenship, and paid them a fee :) .
You guys are just great!!!!!!!
Thank you all.
God bless America...(and Italy as well ) :)
Pfrankow
07-28-2005, 08:38
God bless America...(and Italy as well ) :)[/QUOTE]
Ahh...there you have it. Proof of alliegence to a foreign nation!! :)
OK--- just a little morning humor.
There is some flexibility on this among different agencies and the best advice given here (in addition to applying as soon as possible) is to check with recruitment personnel at agencies you may be interested in. Had reason to check this out for a particular applicant and was told they may maintain dual citizenship until they wanted to apply for supervisory or higher positions at which point they would be required to renounce their non-US citizenship. Additionally, while at 35 it may be behind you, applicants in this situation need to be sure that maintaining a non-US citizenship does not pose legal obligations in the other country that a US agency will not support, such as mandatory military or public service for that other country.
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