Secondary Weapons

[Futurecopdude]

I have a quick question. Actually a question was posed to me about secondary weapons. Some guys say that revolvers are the way to go because they will always fire. Other guys say, go with the same caliber as your primary, so you can interchange mags and yada yada yada. Me personally, I carry a Glock 27 on my ankle obviously because my primary is a 22 and the mags are interchangeable. The question came up how many cops that have been involved in shootings actually had to go to their back up and for what reason. Was it because of a malfunction, ran out of rounds or just couldn't get to primary for whatever reason. I suppose my question is, are there any stats that show this? At this point it is just a curiosity thing to me because I couldn't answer the question when it was posed to me and I couldn't think of any other place to possibly find the answer than here. Let me know what you think, or give me any other info you may have or point me to another thread that has addressed this before. Thanks.

[Jedi]

Future--

I don't have any of the stats you're looking for in regards to the number of officers/agents/etc who have had to go to their BUGs, nor do I have any of the reasons for doing so. However, I would like to offer some food for thought:

If one cop anywhere ever got to the point where he had to use a backup weapon, shouldn't that be enough justification for you to carry one? Think of it as an insurance policy: there are probably a lot of folks on this board who have never been involved in a car wreck, but I'd bet we've all got car insurance. Same concept. You want the gun just in case, although you keep your fingers crossed that you never have to actually use it for anything.

[Kahuna5150]

I think it's going to be hard to find the stats on how many officers use a backup weapon. I'm not sure those stats are even collected anywhere. It would be even more unlikely they would be broken down by reason (malfunction/loss/ammo of primary problem, switched to backup etc).

I will say from my own personal experience and observations. I myself (and many officers I know) have had to go to their backups a few times when they arrived at a call for service only to remember their primary was still locked in the trunk of their patrol car or the gun locker at the jail. Sounds crazy that anyone could forget their primary weapon, but it has happened to the best of us. I took my glock 27 out of the BUG holster and threw it into my duty holster. Looked kind of silly to have such a small gun on my hip during that call, but it was nice to have a gun at all as well as the spare rounds to fill it if needed (mags on my belt).

I have heard of officers (read in normal police mags, and training bulletins) who have been in a fight for their primary weapon and went for their backup to shoot the suspect who was trying to disarm them. Personally I'm not doubting this has happened, but I'm guessing it was a rare and specific circumstance. When someone is going for your primary I'm guessing most would not have the time or spare hands to go for a backup weapon. You're going to revert to your training for weapon retention. Not aware of any academy that trains to go for a backup while trying to retain your primary, so I'm guessing you'd probably not go for your backup instinctively... This is especially true depending on where you carry your backup..

Kahuna

[kennethm3]

My FTO taught me to always put my hand on the butt of my weapon when I opened a car door. I thought it a funny act until I realized why one day in the sally port why it was important.

One note on the gun lockers. Once they are a few years old one key might open another door pretty easily. I had been in and out of the sally port one day several times and was back out in the field when another agent called me on the radio, requesting a meeting. Once he showed up he asked me the serial number on my weapon, I quoted it back to him from memory and he laughed, telling me to look at the weapon on my hip. Sure as hell, I had opened the wrong locker (the one I had used several times that day) and taken his weapon instead of mine; a big oops! I was really embarrassed but I am glad he caught it. He had gone out the sally port to leave only to find his weapons locker door wide open and his pistol gone, not a happy moment I am sure. He quickly figured out what had happened and was able to open my gun locker with his key and effect a switch once he met me in the field.

[GS1890]

First off, be glad that you work for a forward thinking organization that permits a back up weapon. I don't. That being said, I did work for an agency twenty years ago when I was young, stupid, and single and I occasionally carried a j-frame .38 snub in my left rear uniform pant's pocket. It backed up my four inch .38 on the Sam Browne belt. So, there is something to the interchangebility of ammunition. If it were allowed by my current agency, I would purchase a Glock 26 (9mm) to back up the issued Glock 17 (9mm). Magazines are good for both sizes.

[Beercop]

Futurecopdude,

Make sure you run some drills with your 27 using 22 mags. I recently ran a stress course and had 2 instances where a round failed to load properly. It turns out that my pinky finger was canting the extended magazine just enough to jam it up. After about 50 more drills (most dry fire) I was able to develop enough muscle memory to correct the grip issue. Just a thought. (I've been shooting for years and it still amazes me how proper form seems to go out the window once you add a bit of stress and excitement)

[ATFpoa]

I know of one officer on my old dep't who had his gun taken from him during a struggle. The offender attempted to shoot the officer, in the head, at contact range, several times. The officer had engaged the decocker/safety on his S&W, and the offender couldn't figure it out. The offender fled, and was arrested days later. The officer did not have a backup.

Backup use went from 25% of the department to at least 60%.

[k9cop21811]

Sound advice all the way around. My thinking most closely matches Jedi's, however. Like with any equipment, it's sure better to have it and not need it than the other way around.

I'm not aware of any statistics on BU weapon use, but you might find something on the Bureau of Justice Statistics website: http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/

[UncleSugar]

There is a video of an officer in the southeast who gets in a fight with a thug, and they go to the ground. The thug gets his gun in the struggle, with the officer and the K-9. Luckily the gun jammed (stovepipe) when the thug tried to hit the dog with the gun. Thug tried to shoot the officer on the ground, and again when he stood up, but couldn't clear the jam. The officer hopped up, pulled his backup, a .380 pistol, and put five rounds into the thug. All caught on tape.

It may be rare, but they have saved people.