View Full Version : Real Life 9mm vs. .40
Johnny_Danger
11-01-2005, 21:53
I know there has been a few threads discussing what people like better or what people should use, a 9mm or .40...
(generally the answer has been, use what you can shoot more accurately)
But my question is:
Has anyone ever had an experience or heard a story where they were involved or someone they know has been involved where the choice of 9mm vs. .40 actually manifested itself into a real life situation?
ie... officer used 9mm and the round did not penetrate something or did not have enough power and they really wished they had a .40 at the time...
satpak77
11-01-2005, 22:13
I know there has been a few threads discussing what people like better or what people should use, a 9mm or .40...
(generally the answer has been, use what you can shoot more accurately)
But my question is:
Has anyone ever had an experience or heard a story where they were involved or someone they know has been involved where the choice of 9mm vs. .40 actually manifested itself into a real life situation?
ie... officer used 9mm and the round did not penetrate something or did not have enough power and they really wished they had a .40 at the time...
Either round is a proven round. 9mm was used by SEALs years ago and was big in the military NATO community. Both rounds saw service as official DEA/FBI and majority of federal LE issue. A round does not get federal stamp of approval without XXX millions of dollars of research and testing.
40 came into vogue prob in mid-90's for whatever reasons, but again, both are proven rounds. A .40 physically is 10.16 mm. The 40 was developed partially out of a desire to have .45 stopping power (a documented fact) and 9mm round capacities.
The shooter would do himself good working on tactics and shooting skills as this is just as, if not more important than, the actual caliber itself (re: 9mm versus .40 -----> obviously not .177 airgun versus .44 magnum)
40 v 9 is as old as Chevy v Ford or Army v Navy
Here are some links for more reading
http://smith-wessonforum.com/groupee/forums/a/tpc/f/520103904/m/191103318?a=tpc&cdra=Y&s=884106832&m=191103318&f=520103904
http://64.233.187.104/search?q=cache:kiK9BYUsjpEJ:www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BTT/is_158_26/ai_86704766+.40+versus+9mm&hl=en
later
ie... officer used 9mm and the round did not penetrate something or did not have enough power and they really wished they had a .40 at the time...
Just to flip things around, how many examples are there where not having the advantages of a 9MM comes into play?
ie...officer used a .40 and fired all his rounds and really wished they had the greater capacity of the 9mm?
Personally, I think it's pretty much a wash overall. The .40 has it's advantages and limitations, as does the 9MM. The trick is to learn to maximize the advantages that either gun provides while minimalizing it's drawbacks.
modareguy
11-01-2005, 22:59
Good shot placement is a major factor in defeating a threat. Somewhere I heard that the .22 has killed more people than any other caliber. With that said, i'm in no way advocating that you carry a .22 for a duty weapon.
In the end, as others have eluded to, this thread most certainly will end up with endless opinions and take on a life of its own.....
Kahuna5150
11-02-2005, 00:36
One thing to consider as well... Ammunition is also a key factor in how well or poorly a round will perform. If shooting at a glass window I would guess a hardball round (.40 or 9mm) would probably perform much better than a glaser safety slug or some other hollow point ammunition.
Having a great +p+ 9mm hollow point round will probably offer better stopping power as opposed to a subsonic .40 soft point round. I'm not ballistic expert, but short of having the exact same properties (9mm hardball vs. .40 hardball and 9mm hollow point vs .40 hollow point) it would be hard to determine what had more of an impact on performance.
I'm curious how many shootings where a given caliber did not perform as well as hoped would have been much better with the same caliber yet a different selection of ammunition in that caliber.
Kahuna
One of the detectives I worked with told me about a shooting he was involved in some number of years ago while on patrol. He was carrying a 9mil at the time, and fired 8 or 9 shots through the door of a vehicle. One shot got through, but the others all remained lodged in the door. His shot placement was spot on, but the rounds didn't have the needed penatration power. Fortunately, he had backup to take care of the bad guy, and all the officers walked away in good condition. However, he did switch to .357 very shortly after.
I hesitate to get into this fray, as this is a "chicken or the egg" discussion with no clear victor. And if we throw shot placement into the mix, it gets even more convoluted.
What do you want to do? There are scores of urban legend stories of cops shooting bad guys, cars, etc. There are an equal number of stories of 1 shot stops with a .25 caliber in the psychomotor triangle.
The 9mm lost favor for a heavier bullet after the FBI '85 Miami shootout. Alot of ballistic work done, moving DOJ from 115gr 9mm to 147gr. Lighter bullets would not/did not penetrate through enough muscle/bone to reach vitals.
Then along came the heavier bullets. FBI rushed to the 10mm and almost as quickly rushed out. (Long story). The .40 and .45 suddenly were fashionable as the quick fix to the heavier bullet push. What was old was "new again".
I'm from both schools. I've carried a .45 most of my career and I love the 230 gr Hydroshock round. I affectionately call it "the flying ashtray".
Your best bet is to carry what you shoot well, but in 9mm, stay at the 147gr or above and practice, practice, practice!! DM
I know there has been a few threads discussing what people like better or what people should use, a 9mm or .40...
Look. I think it all comes down to shot placement. Trying to come up with a firm definition of stopping power with the human body has too many variables to be reliable.
AFA as the .40, I somehow get the feeling it's another money making gimmick, like the .41 magnum in the 60's and the 10MM in the 80's.
I remember one time when I was a trainee, (pre-history) my partner and I were getting ready to go home and we were playing with the latest thing, the Jurras Super Vel .38 special HP's. Of course they were unauthorized, it was RNL at that time, period. And nobody had published the RII tables yet.
In any case, one of the old coots who had done his 20 in NYPD came over and started to yell at us using one of the RNL cartridges as a pointer, "You stupid kids, you're gonna get in trouble, you think you know everything! What's wrong with these rounds? I KILLED TWO MEN with these rounds, so DON'T TELL ME THEY DON'T WORK!"
and he was right.
if you can place them properly, they work.
Don't try to replace accuracy with "stopping power" because it may leave you short.....................
OK, you started it with the Super Vels!!
We carried 110 gr. 38 Super Vels (these were in their day the cat's pajamas) and we were told the best of the best. Carried a 2" Model 10 S&W. The muzzle blast and flash would destroy your night purple in seconds at night!
Had a U/C deal with the U/C driving an old Fiat 850 Spyder. Bad guy was a big-time Biker on the passenger side. They were supposed to remain stationary and do a meth deal. The U/C screwed the pooch and decided to travel to the Biker's apartment for the dope. Bottom line was it was a pure rip off. Biker demanded the money, U/C complied and threw the money to him with his right hand and drew the Model 10 with the left.
U/C fired 6 shots at 18 inches into the Biker. 2 hit upper left arm, both failed to penetrate bone. 2 hit left side, 1 stopped by the LEATHER BELT and the other broke a rib. 2 rounds went wild. (Yes, wild at 18")
Bottom line: Bike got out of the car, p.o'd that he was shot and bleeding like a stuck pig from the arm/rib wounds. He spent less than 2 days in the hospital.
Super-Vels weren't around very long were they??!!!
Thanks for the stroll down memory lane. DM
universible
11-02-2005, 08:56
ie... officer used 9mm and the round did not penetrate something or did not have enough power and they really wished they had a .40 at the time...
Not exactly into the debate...but I'm thinking this is a luxury that you likely won't have in the moment...and definetly shouldn't be thinking of.
Personally, I'm using whatever force is necessary to stop the threat...regardless of the type of round used...or rock...or pen...or cheeseburger. :2gun: (no cheeseburger throwing smiley)
This is very much a walk down memory lane and I remember such convoluted loads as the Skeeter Skelton special (inverted wad cutter) that were all touted for their stopping power. Of course, the equation for police rounds includes more than "stopping" power and I'll get into that in a moment.
As previously stated in other threads, my point of view is that Newton's law applies here. If stopping power is sufficient energy transfer to stop an assailant without turning off their central nervous system (ala DMClark) then it would need to be sufficient to damage or stop the shooter. A weapons system with inherent stopping power would be the Abrams tank. Run into one at 80mph with a VW Beetle. QED. Even given that a semiautomatic pistol mitigates some of the energy punishment to the shooter by diverting the energy to do work (cycling the action), put the round in a revolver or single shot and it is still no stopper on its own.
Delivering effectively down range absolutely requires that the shooter be part of the equation. Effective delivery is essential to getting whatever there is to be gotten from the platform and round. Thus in a range from 9mm through .40S&W, ideally you would pick the platform that you can effectively deliver into DM's triangle or into the ovoid of death (draw a circle around the head and then drag the bottom to just below the sternum without widening the circle.) Get the rounds in there and you will either bust up the central nervous system, the heart or induce massive bleeding which leads to unconsciousness.
Now factor in conditions. The 9mm shoots well and a variety of shooters handle it well. With hardball it is a terrific penetrator but hardball is not desirable for LE where over penetration may be an issue. However, in Buffalo in January, dense wool coats may cause the 9mm hollowpoint to expand prematurely or to plug the hollowpoint making it function like an adhoc harball, which means it will not drop most of its energy load in the target. .40 S&W seems to overcome this problem and the figures show that good 9mm shooters adjust well to the .40.
Now factor in psychology. Unless they are unusual folks the person at whom you are shooting has no idea what it is that you are using. So it is your psychology. To deliver well requires confidence and control. Like fairies in Peter Pan this all works better if you believe in it. The .45 is an excellent round but is surrounded by a mythology that it is tough to shoot well. That perception is amplified by years of exposure to the 1911AI, many of which people met in the service. Nothing like a 50 year old gun that rattles like a castenet. Plus it seems to cross a line of being just enough disturbance on the shooter that folks do not handle it well as generally as they do the .40 or the 9. I personally think the mythology is having more effect than the physics, but again absent the Abrams, delivery is important here. Which is why, except in unplanned circumstances, you want to be sure that somebody has something more than a last resort handgun where you can.
So for me, the .40 well delivered will make you bleed a little faster than the 9 and will perform positively in situations where the 9 may struggle (using hollow point rounds), but I would not be uncomfortable with a 9.
What I would be uncomfortable with is running out of ammunition with anything. That speaks to bad fire discipline or bad tactical decision making or being in an untenable situation that you are probably going to lose. Because in the end, the handgun is not a magic talisman that is going to make everything ok.
9mm vs. .40 doesn't mean jack unless you hit what you are shooting at.
Because in the end, the handgun is not a magic talisman that is going to make everything ok.
Let me expound on this thought....ANY handgun is by design a poor choice to stop/kill/neutralize someone. A rifle, shotgun, or crew-served weapon is a far better choice. Just look at the clues: does your local swat team just use pistols? Does the US Army go to war using only Berettas?
The problem exists in that they don't make a holster in black basketweave for a Browning M-2, belt-fed .50 cal! We carry handguns because they are conveinient and concealable, not because they are the most efficient tool at stopping/killing/neutralizing.
A difference in 1 mm (the nominal difference in bore size between a 9mm and a .40), 10 grains, and a few hundred feet per second in velocity is not going to make a huge difference in the grand scheme of things. However, your skill with a handgun will make a far greater difference in how things might turn out.
I will repeat the old adage: I would rather be missed with a .45 than hit with a .22! :cool:
Celtic Warrior
11-02-2005, 10:30
ie... officer used 9mm and the round did not penetrate something or did not have enough power and they really wished they had a .40 at the time...
Rest assured...anything less than the aforementioned belt fed or a Howitzer and you'll be wanting more firepower...in fact even that weaponry may leave you wanting :star:
As previously mentioned Hit what you're shooting at and try to hit it where it will make it stop doing what it's doing that makes you have to shoot it in the first place!
This is very much a walk down memory lane and I remember such convoluted loads as the Skeeter Skelton special (inverted wad cutter) that were all touted for their stopping power.
Skeeter? I thought that was Bill Jordan's round for "social" situations?
OK, here's a story. Officers from my old PD were involved in a gunfight on Milennium Eve with a robbery suspect. They put 42 or 43 rounds of 9mm into the vehicle the bad guy had carjacked. Only two of those rounds penetrated the vehicle. The department decides to switch to 40 cal. Fastforward to October 8th of this year. An officer is involved in a close range gunfight with a bad guy. The officer puts 5 rounds of 40 cal. into the abdominal area of the target. The scumbag manages to slide a round between the panels of the officer's vest, killing him. A supervisor had to put 2 more rounds of 40 cal. into the scumbag's neck/head area to shut him down. BTW, the bad guy was shooting 38 Special lead round nose bullets.
The moral of the story supports what has already been said. Neither round is a 'fight stopper'. The choice between the two is a trade-off.
Hey, I used to LOAD those Skeeter rounds!! 148 gr hollow based wad cutter loaded inverted. Big cup and shitty round. Used to keyhole beyond 15 yards. They were nice to shoot in my Model 60 BUG. DM
Back in the day when the well dressed plainclothesman aspired to a 2 inch five shot belly gun with rubber bands for a holster. Push 'em in over 5.5 grains of Unique.
Back in the day when the well dressed plainclothesman aspired to a 2 inch five shot belly gun with rubber bands for a holster. Push 'em in over 5.5 grains of Unique.
MAGNUM rubber bands if you will, sir.
Also good for in-office rubber band fights. And don't forget the water pistols with pressurized tanks!
Had a clueless boss. We used to plant grass seeds in his planter. They grew very well in his sunny corner office. He was very proud of them. Until someone told him what they were.......................
I used Bullseye. Nice powder but what a mess it made come cleaning time.
Somewhere back in time two US Marshals killed a couple of work months debating the relative merits of the .36 vs. the .44 on a Colt or Remington single action black powder duty gun.
Somewhere back in time two US Marshals killed a couple of work months debating the relative merits of the .36 vs. the .44 on a Colt or Remington single action black powder duty gun.
One of the guys in my class used to walk up to uniformed MOF in NYC and ask for opinions on whether to get a Smith or a Colt............................
The problem with the question posed is that it's all theory and speculation as to how a given situation would have panned out with the use of a different round/weapon/shot placement, whatever. Other than lab tests, you're not going to get a repeatable circumstance.
Probably nobody reads him any more, but Robert C. Ruark was a columnist, novelist and memoir writer. Often wrote about hunting and had a book, Use Enough Gun. Point being pretty clear. In the equation of shooter, conditions, platform and cartridge it is better to step up if you can rather than not get it done as fast and cleanly as possible. A big gun doesn't make a bad shooter more dangerous and too little gun can thwart a good shooter. Just understand that all handguns are on the light side for taking down a man and make the best compromise you can.
I've stated this old cop line a number of times before.
Every cop wants a gun that hits like a .44 mag but is the size of a .25 Browning. It is the eternal search (OK, maybe not eternal, but expensive!)
I've stated this old cop line a number of times before.
Every cop wants a gun that hits like a .44 mag but is the size of a .25 Browning. It is the eternal search (OK, maybe not eternal, but expensive!)
Sort of like the ideal candidate for the job.
The mind, experience, and maturity of a 50 year old in an 18 year old body.............................
Now try to find one.
Shoot fast, shoot accurately.
Repeat as necessary.
Even a rifle isn't much good if'n you don't hit your target.
Use what you've got, and train with it religiously.
I think a better question, for those that have carried both, would be: If you had to choose between a 9mm and a .40 cal. for on-duty carry in uniform, which would you pick? I imagine most would say the .40 cal.
I tend to look at the various PBAs and other police unions that represent the front line, big-city police departments. Are the the guys/gals in the squad cars complaining about lack of stopping power ? I remember well back in the 70's when they said "give us hollowpoints", or "give us autoloaders". I guess now they want M-4s from what I'm hearing. As far as handguns go, the NYPD carries 9mm pistols and issue Speer Goldot 124 +P. Philly issues Glock 17 (9mm) with standard pressure Federal 115 JHP. As far as I know, they are getting good street results with this combination. Anybody know different ?
I tend to look at the various PBAs and other police unions that represent the front line, big-city police departments. Are the the guys/gals in the squad cars complaining about lack of stopping power ? I remember well back in the 70's when they said "give us hollowpoints", or "give us autoloaders". I guess now they want M-4s from what I'm hearing. As far as handguns go, the NYPD carries 9mm pistols and issue Speer Goldot 124 +P. Philly issues Glock 17 (9mm) with standard pressure Federal 115 JHP. As far as I know, they are getting good street results with this combination. Anybody know different ?
What the department issues is only half of the equation if you want to go that route. A LOT of departments issue 9mm weapons for whatever reason: price, reliability, etc. Each department has their own reasons. The other question to ask is, of those departments, do they allow their officers to choose to carry OTHER weapons/calibers? Of those who do, what percentage of the officers follow through and pick a larger caliber?
My department issues 9mm Sigs, but authorizes carry of .357. All of the officers who have come out to the academy to instruct us have recommended that we upgrade from the 9mm as soon as personal budgets allowed it.
To largely disinterested police personnel who only qual two-three times per year, a 9mm has much to offer the police administrator. 9mm is not a great round, but is far from the bottom as well. A couple of weeks ago, I fired a friend's personal .45 ACP Colt (full size) at the barricades 25 yard. Nice gun, but it sure had more felt recoil than my duty Glock 17. I know, I'm a wimp, but advancing years do that to you... :)
vBulletin® v3.6.8, Copyright ©2000-2010, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.