View Full Version : special forces
CTMarshal999
10-07-2001, 16:17
For all the guys in the know out there.
Who/What is considered the best special ops force in the world.
By the best I mean; the training they receive, the lethality of the operatives via wpns and CQC, ability to operate anywhere for anytime, etc.
Which one is the best??
I have a great amount of respect for the US SpecOps community, ie Seals, Army SF, and Marine Recon. However, I have to give a lot of credit to the British SAS (Special Air Service) and the Isreali Masad(sp?) there Intellengence Group.
It depends on the type of situation that you are in as to what group you wouold use.
papimike
10-07-2001, 17:12
I DONT KNOW WHO IS THE BEST-- I CAN ONLY GIVE AN INCH OF HISTORY, AND HOPE THAT I AM NOT MISTAKEN---- BRITISH SPECIAL FORCES CAME FIRST -- I THINK WE SENT OUR TROOPS OVER THEIR MANY MOONS AGO TO LEARN THEIR TECHNIQUES, AND I BELIEVED WE FINE TUNED THINGS OUR OWN WAY SINCE THEN. --- PLEASE CORRECT ME IF I AM WRONG ---- I WILL SAY THOUGH THAT I RESPECT THE JOB THAT THEY ALL DO-----ITS BAD ENOUGH GOING INTO A FOREIGN COUNTRY WITH THOUSANDS OF TROOPS AS SUPPORT, BUT GOING IN WITH A SMALL UNIT WITH A HANDFUL OF OPERATIVES AND MINIMAL EQUIPMENT AND SUPPLIES???? THAT TAKES SOME GOOD OLE FASHIONED BIG BALLS.
IMO, all the Elite forces are equal. The British SAS are probably the best in the world but here in our forces, The one you don't hear about much is Delta Force. I have actually seen these guys in action along with all the other SF guys (Rangers, Recon, Seals, Combat Control). These guys are amazing and their training, from what I understand, Is still top secret information, while other units training methods are on video tape. I have seen all these guys because I was stationed at Macdill AFB inside the SOCOM (Special Operations COMmand) building and got to deploy with themm guarding their planes and their generals. All in all though, I think they all support each other. They rely on each other to get the job done, so IMO they are all equal except for Delta Force and British SAS.
HANDS DOWN IT IS THE BRITISH. IF I'M NOT MISTAKEN, THEY ACTUALLY TRAINED THE U.S. SO PUTING THESE TWO FORCES TOGETHER SHOULD BE PRETTY DEADLY, FOR WHO EVER IS ON THE RECEIVING END. I HAVE ALSO HEARD THAT CANADA HAS VERY GOOD SPECIAL FORCES AS WELL. FOR WHAT IT'S WORTH, I DON'T SEE ANY ONE OF THESE FORCES HAVING TROUBLE TAKING CARE OF BUSINESS (IF YA KNOW WHAT I MEAN):sniper:
RoscoeRuhl
10-07-2001, 23:18
If you were to ask anyone who's in a positon with any of the special operations groups which was the best, you would most likely receive the answer that the group that particular individual was assigned to would be the best. I'm not certain who was first, however I think I'd be somewhere in the neighborhood to say that the Rangers would be among the first to originate. That would put them around the late 1700-1800's. Common sense has to come into place. The Air force was born of the Army and the Marine Corps was born of the Navy! That would mean that both the USAF & USMC special operations groups wouldn't be the first. All of the special ops groups are proficient and equally skilled at their particular functions of responsibility.
Have a great day!
One group that I forgot to mention was the Germans. When we where in Kosovo we did some work with the GSG-9 guys, German Counter-Terrorist Teams. Also, a group that I personally thought was pretty impressive was the German National Border Police. When it came to "national defense" the Krouts were pretty sharp. They have some good units with significant training and real world experience.
As a prior service Marine and now a member of the Army NG I have to be careful about siding with a certain branch. However, on a world level I have to give the following: SAS the Gold, Isreali Masad the Silver, and GSG-9 the Bronze.
I know I will hear from my friends in Germany, so much for Octoberfest. Also, any brothers from the 45 British Royal Marines X Company I know you guys are ready to go to Afghan. As much as I heard you guys complain about Pristina.
Take care and be safe.
It's almost like asking which federal law enforcement agency is the best. Well, it depends...on who is answering and what their prejudices are. There is no objective criteria for evaluating which fed agency or which Special Operations group is the best. Just as the ATF has their focus, as does DEA, FBI, USSS, etc., the same applies to the different Special Operations groups around the world.
Delta and the SAS perform pretty much the same missions: Anti-Terrorist, Hostage Rescue, and Snatch and Grab type operations. Other countries' Spec Ops forces that fall into the same category as Delta and SAS include France's GIGN and the German's GSG-9. Which is better? That is impossible to say. The British SAS was the first group of its kind to perform those specific missions, and Delta, GSG-9, and the GIGN were all patterned after the SAS model. Believe it or not, those guys get together periodically and have competetions, and it is generally a toss up as to who will win. All of the above agencies have proven themselves time and again to be up to the task.
U.S. Army Special Forces (Green Berets) focus on behind the lines type combat operations, as well as, training other countries' (usually third world) military forces. They are very, very good at what they do.
The Navy SEALs have no equal in the water except maybe Britain's Special Boat Service (SBS). They also do relatively well on land operations.
If you need to destroy an objective and everyone on it (like say a terrorist training camp), then you call the U.S. Army Rangers. They are the original commandos, unless you give that credit to the Native American Indians who the Rangers patterned their tactics off of. The Rangers also perform snatch and grab and rescue missions (Grenada and Somalia). Put Delta and the Rangers together on a mission to destory a terrorist camp and snatch Bin Laden out of it, then you have an awesome combination.
So, as you can see, our country does not have several different special ops groups that perform the exact same function. Their missions are varied, and to try to compare them to each other is like trying to compare apples and oranges.
Hope this helps.
papimike
10-08-2001, 15:13
COMING FROM MY KNOWLEDGE OF TERRORITST ACTIVITY AND MIDDLE EASTERN COUNTRIES, NOT TOO MUCH, BUT ENOUGH----I DO NOT THINK THAT THE PUBLIC IS AWARE OF THE LAND MINE FACTOR IN AFGHANISTAN. THERE ARE THOUSANDS OF LAND MINES IN THAT COUNTRY. 100 TO 300 OF THEM DIE EVERYDAY FROM STEPPING ON THEM. ---- LEFT FROM THE WAR WITH THE SOVIETS. -- THIS AND BIOLOGICAL WEAPONS ARE MY BIGGEST FEAR FOR GROUND TROOP DEPLOYMENT.
mikemac64
10-08-2001, 19:29
As a former Marine, I need to clear up something. The marine's were not born of the Navy. The Marine's were created to provide security and boarding parties. The Marine's have no special forces. The do have special operations capable units, and I am certain that there Marine's assigned to special operations commands.
I know at one point, the commanding General of J-SOC in FL was a Marine General.
Now, the big debate I am seeing on other boards is whether Marine RECON and Force RECON are special forces. THe answer is No. Force RECON is assigned as the recon element of the MAGT (Marine Air/Ground Task Force). The MAGTF is the basis of the Marine Expiditionary Force MEF, which is considered special operations capable. This is the self conatined war fighting apperatus not found in the Army, or Airforce.
The components are fighter jets, attack jets, air transport, intel, helicopters, trucks, artillary, and of course grunts. Now, there are other support components, but these are the essential parts of it.
Now, the Force in Force RECON comes from the MAGTF, not the wider uninformed believe that it is some sort of force to be reckoned with, which it is. Force RECON is as capable a fighting force as any special operations unit in the US, and they train with the others on a regular basis.
I may have mixed a couple of things up here, seeing as I have been out 15 years, but that is the gist of it.
Mike
RoscoeRuhl
10-08-2001, 23:21
mikemac64,
The USMC was a Department of the Navy organization, hence it originated from and is of the Navy. The lineage of the service should provide clear information on this.
Have a great day!
I have to disagree. The Marine Corps. was never "born of the Navy:" The Marine Corps. was formed in 1775 by the Continental Congress - not as any part of the existing U.S. Navy, but to serve as a seaborne landing force. These first Marines were also placed under the direct command of a Marine Captain - not of anyone in the U.S. Navy.
I, and I think mikemac64 as well (and probably many other Marines out there), interpret being "born of the Navy" as being "part of the Navy," which the Marine Corps. is clearly not.
Being under the DEPARTMENT of the Navy and being PART of the Navy are two different animals. The Marine Corps. has not only its own mission, but its own budget and its own representative in all matters military - the Commandant. Although we work closely with the U.S. Navy and share many similar seagoing traditions (because of our historical shipboard/amphibious service) we do not answer to, nor consider ourselves part of the U.S. Navy.
k
mikemac64
10-09-2001, 10:19
Just to expand a little more (being a former marine is like being in a cult), the marine Coprs does not fall under any naval authority. The only line of command which could be construed ike this is the Commandant of the Marine Corps reports to the Secretary of the Navy.
The Commandant sits on the Joint Chiefs, and has complete and total control of the Marine Corps (budget, staffing, deployment, planning, etc). Additionally, the Commandant DOES NOT report to the Chief of Naval Operations (CNO). This is a common misconception. Both the CNO and the Commandant wear 4 stars, and both sit on the Jopint Chiefs, and both answer equally to the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs, as well as the Secretary of the Navy and the Secretary of Defense.
Now, when you get to theater operations, you may have a Navy Admiral commanding a theater, with Army, Navy, Marines, and Air Force reporting to him. This person is the command authority.
In the next theater, you may have a marine General doping the same thing. Things get pretty muddled at those levels. But this is way of topic now.
Mike
Now, now, we all must play nice with the sailors. On our eagle, glode and anchor we must remember that the anchor represents naval traditons. Krellun and mikemac pretty much hit the nail on the head about the "part of" and "department" thing.
Me, I think we are the department of the navy, the men's department.:D
Semper Fi!!!!!!!!
mikemac64
10-09-2001, 13:38
There is the men's department... MCRD, Parris Island, and the boys department....MCRD, San Diego.....
Platoon 2044, 2nd Batallion
MCRD Parris Island, SC
June, 1983
There is the men's department... MCRD, Parris Island, and the boys department....MCRD, San Diego.....
OK...now the battle lines are REALLY drawn...
k (<-- PI Marine, PLT 2069, September 1986)
I guess someone got one too many bites by the sand fleas at PI. That's OK, you can be jealious because you have swamps instead of the sun and sand.
Your right Krellum, that fight is on.
Semper Fi Bros!!!!!!!
2nd Btln, Fox Comp, Plt 2094, 1988, SAN DEIGO!!!!!
mikemac64
10-09-2001, 19:06
I was the only Marine from my platoon from P.I. who went to Pendelton. I used to marvel at the tales from MCRD Sa Diego. They actually took you people to a baseball games (Padres????).
We saw a movie. You know what one of the biggest movies of 1982-1983 was????? An Officer and a Gentleman!!!!
That made us feel good. We were living it.
lol
M
Well I see how this is going to turn out. I have only one thing to say and that is none of you PI Marines had to hump up Mount Mother Fu**er. I rest my case
Plt 1070 1st Bn
MCRD San Diego
July 1989
mikemac64
10-10-2001, 00:09
Well actually, I did. I was stationed with the 7th marines at San Mateo prior to their moving to 29 Stumps. So I never did it from PI, but I did do it.
We had a former recon guy who used to make us run it...and it's counterpart, 1st Sgt'. Hill.
papimike
10-10-2001, 03:11
SORRY TO SWITCH THE MOOD REAL QUICK, BUT I CAN'T HELP IT-----I WAS JUST LISTENING TO THE RADIO---THE MEDIA HAS DONE IT AGAIN!!!!!!!!!! BASTARDS!!!!!
HERE IS WHAT I HEARD, " OUR SOURCES ARE CONFIRMING THAT A LARGE CONTINGENT OF U.S. SPECIAL FORCES ARE ENROUTE TO AFGHANISTAN......"
WHAT THE HELL!!! JUST LIKE SOMALIA WHEN CNN WAS ON THE BEACH AS THE SEALS ARRIVED. ARE THESE GUYS JACKASSES OR WHAT?
I'm with yoy Papi. I've lost many of my brothers (Rangers) due to the media and their big friggin' mouths. Free speach is only free so long as it isn't abused; at that point it costs someone.
SUA SPONTE
Tacmedicmatt
10-10-2001, 06:29
I think what we have seen here is there is always a bias to the unit you served in. IMO the best special ops groups in the world are all of them you do not get to that level without being very good. But here is my opinon mission specific.
Hostage rescue: toss up, SAS or Delta
Water ops: SEALS followed by British SBS
Counterinsugency: Green Berets
Recon: Marine Force Recon then Rangers
Snipers: Marine Scout Snipers
Helicopter Ops: Army 160th Nightstalkers
Medical: Airforce PJ's
This is just my opinion, I'm sure there are others.
2nd Battalion Golf Co. Plt 2055 MCRD SD 1988
Tacmedic:
Good stuff, you have done your homework. I am in agreement with a lot of you rankings. I have a fondness for the SAS and the Brits, had a bunch of friends in Kosovo. I keep saying on the board about Israeli Intell units, they are not amatuers.
Papi/Savage:
Define ironic, Whe our brothers (Military/LEO,etc..) are fighting and dying for the freedoms of the Frist Amendment and they(press) screw us with it. BTW, I loved it when Pres Bush scolded congress for the release of sensitive information.
Take care and be safe.
Semper Fi Bros!!!!!!!
johnnyringo73
10-12-2001, 09:17
I love it!!! Stories from the past
here's my favorite from my boot camp experience at PI:
I was in boot during Christmas, so we got a 10 min. phone call to one of our relatives, and after it was over, we were taken to church for services. Back at the barracks, our DI's said that they have a " special gift" for us. All the recruits, including myself were really excited to see a giant TV rolled out into the squad bay. Our Senior said since it is football season, college ball that is, we were going to watch the orange bowl. Happy as can be, all the recruits moved their footlockers closer. The DI turned the TV on, and nothing but static! Behind his back he was hiding a bowl with oranges in it! You guessed it, We got to watch the "Orange Bowl"
There are many more stories, as everyone can attest to who has been to PI.
Semper Fi. Do or Die, Gung Ho Gung Ho
2nd Bn, Fox Co, MCRD Parris Island 1992
Krellum, UN-COP, MikeMac64.
I'm not going to touch on the history of the Corp since you all made it for me but I thought I would give some info on the USMC and Spec Ops.
The Marine Corp do not have any units(operaters) that work under SOCOM down here in Tampa and never will but as one of you said they do have Officers that are attached to SOCOM. The reason for this is $$$$$$ and control amoung other reasons, the Marine corps do have Spec Ops units and they are.
Bn Recon- Short range recon, water ops, jump/dive,demo
Force Recon- 1st Force CA, 2nd Force NC LOOOOOOONGE range recon (20 Miles out) Dive/jump, Ranger school, path finder, scout sniper, driving, demo and a lot more.
With in the Force Recon unit there is a Plt(6th Plt) that works only CQB there attached to a unit called SOTG and they train out in Stone bay at the ranges.
For any of you guys in NYC or New Orleans you might have seen these guys (SOTG) running TRUE missions in your City's with the FEDS.
This is the basics and I hope this helps the topic.
The USAF has great special ops teams , Combat Controllers , Para Rescue. Para Res. main mission is to resue downed pilots behind enemy lines. (they were the ones who rescued pilot scott o'brady inside bosnia). Not to sure on the combat controls mission , I think they go behind enemy lines with handheld laser target finders and hold that laser on a target for a fighter jet to take out , but I may be mistaken.
Combat Controllers are the ones who are first to arrive at a bare base or certain spec ops deployments and they go in undetected and pretty much set up security or in other instances, give coordinates for air raids and things like that. They are very comparable to green berets.
Tampa_#63
10-15-2001, 00:06
Tony V, just a small correction on what you posted. Scott O'Grady was resued by the US Marines, utlizing a unit trained in down pilot rescue. Stay safe and good luck.
I don't know if the pilot was named O'grady in bosnia but the Air force PJ's did rescue a downed pilot during the conflict over there.
Tampa is correct reference Scott O'Grady.
SP20, you may be correct as well, but it wasn't Captain O'Grady. As far as Air Force CCTs, they are very well trained and very good at what they do, but they are not comparable to to U.S. Army Special Forces (Green Berets). Their missions are totally different. If you mean, however, that their level and difficulty of training is comparable, I won't argue with that. Like I said, they are very good.
Just talking about training and there insurgency capability is very comparable.
If you want to learn something about U.S. special operation units, read "Black Hawk Down". Do not wait for the movie. I assume many of you on this forum are already familiar with this book. But for those of you that are not, it will give you an accurate picture of who makes up a special operations unit, what they go through and why they are an important piece of our military picture. Don't expect Newsweek and Time to give you a clear picture.
Last night PBS had a special on Task Force Ranger and their (Rangers) accounts of what happened in Mogadishu. It was called Amush in Mogadishu. Here's a link to PBS that gives a time line and interviews. http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/ambush/
To clear up a few things, Yes the Marine Corps was born from the Navy, Yes the Marines Corps does have a Special operations force (FORCE RECON!!!!). Last, it doesn't matter where you went to boot camp, we all suffered the same abuse. And enough about this "we are the department of the navy, the mens department" bull@%$*. When the flag goes up we all fight together. Except for the sorry a$$ Coast Guard (Department Of Transportation).
mikemac64
11-16-2002, 09:42
But the Marine's are in the Department of the Navy....and the Marine's are the MENS Department...
lol...Semper Fi....
mikemac64
11-16-2002, 20:57
At the risk of being humorous.....the USMC does not have special forces, but will be adding pesonnel to the JSOC (Joint Special Operations Command) soon.
Recon and Force recon are not special forces,. They rarely operate outside of USMC objectives. Though, individual Marines and teams have participited in limited joint operations, the upcoming assignment of certain USMC assets to JSOC is the first time any USMC units have been officially tagged as Spec Ops.
Looky here, almost a whole post without humor.....
IronlawAgent
11-18-2002, 16:24
What about the CIA Paramilitary Operators, they are the some of the best ever.
The CIA is a civilian agency, not military special forces.:o
IronlawAgent
11-18-2002, 18:56
The original post never said "MILITARY SPECIAL FORCES" it said special ops. But I see your point.
This topic is volleyed around ad nauseum on SOCNET and it always comes down to the following: Each branch of SOCOM has its own specialty with adequate elements of cross training. This, then leads us to consider foreign special ops units.
I met a guy at Benning this Summer who knew a lot about the SBS, the British Special Boat Service, which, in his opinion, were the defining authority of British special ops. To me, they sounded a lot like the SEALS. You just don't hear about them as much as the SAS.
My SF buddies have a lot of respect for Delta operators if that says anything. I have one friend in particular who tried out twice for Delta and while he won't say much about the details, he simply acknowledges that, "Every infantryman should do it." He says this with a sh*t-eating grin on his face.
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