Pistol Shooting from 50 Yards [Archive]

Group 9

05-30-2007, 05:47

Just curious, how many agencies/departments (fed or local) qualify their Agents/Officers with their hand gun from 50 yards?

I think the DEA does.

I heard that the US Marshals shoot from the 25 at a half-size silhouette (which is equivalent to 50 yards).

DEA still does and the FBI used to (I don't know if they still do or not).

DEA also uses a small silhouette target with rifles at fifty yards that is supposed to simulate shooting at 100 yards, I think.

1811narc23

05-30-2007, 07:33

I've read about the DEA being the only Fed. Agency that still does the 50 yard hand gun qualification on their test while at the Academy. When I talked to several local and state law enforcement officers about this they found it hard to believe until I proved it to them via previous forum posts. What they said and I can sort of see their point is... why would they test you on such a long distance for a handgun when you would never shoot at a suspect from that far away no matter the circumstance due to the high possibility of inaccuracy and a good probability of hitting an innocent person.
Any thoughts from anyone on that comment?

Also, btw I heard the DEA no longer makes you do the 50 yard handgun shooting test when you do your re-qualification after you leave the academy. Can anyone else confirm or deny this?

How often do you have to re-qualify your firearms for the DEA? (Yearly, Twice a year...?)

slwog

05-30-2007, 09:03

What they said and I can sort of see their point is... why would they test you on such a long distance for a handgun when you would never shoot at a suspect from that far away no matter the circumstance due to the high possibility of inaccuracy and a good probability of hitting an innocent person.
Any thoughts from anyone on that comment?

Although the percentages may go down as you get further away - and the likelyhood of trying to take that shot in real applications is small because of the risk, wouldn't it stand to reason that your accuracy at close range would only increase as you improved your longer range skills?

VT Troop

05-30-2007, 09:24

If you were to have to shoot at that range, it is good to know where your rounds would hit. ie drop of bullet etc. Also having some confidence at that range doesn't hurt. You never know when the situation may arise that you may need to shoot at that distance. There are a million scenerio's which may present themself. Maybe your on some back road and your advisary has a superior weapon and is at a range of 50 yards. Your only option is to try and get cover and take the guy out. To say you would never do it could be a fatal mistake. Quite a few years ago during the Carl Drega shootings in NH, please excuse the spelling if it is incorrect, several officers/troopers lost their lives, at least one because he could not reload or shoot with his off hand. Drega had a long gun and ambushed many of them. One officer got his strong hand blown off. He was never trained/ could not shoot/get his weapon out with his off hand and it may have cost him his life. Drega walked up to him and executed him. This is a different situation obviously, but same principal, training for every situation makes you stronger.
Stay safe

dmclark

05-30-2007, 09:48

Shooting the 50 is all about handgun basics. If you've got them down, it's no big deal. If you have trigger control or front sight issues, the 50 yard shoot is a force multiplier of problems.

DEA has discussed for years eliminating the 50 yard requirement. Perhaps someone can shed some light on the "why's" after many years.

krellum

05-30-2007, 09:48

Like a lot of weapon/firing range issues, whether your agency does this as part of an actual qual or not is probably more dependent on what your firearm guys happen to think than anything else.

I agree with VTTroop: it's a good skill to have. If you're using the techniques you were taught in the proper manner, it shouldn't be a problem. Chances are it'll be barricade shooting, anyway, and even if your agency doesn't allow you to "use" the barricade (mine doesn't), you'll still probably have some rounds from a position other than offhand (like kneeling) for some support, not to mention more than enough time to do it.

Having once worked in a one-agent post far away from everyone else in my agency, I often used to have to "fend for myself" when qual time rolled around and had to glom on to some other agency and beg them to let me shoot with them for my qualification score. Point being I got to shoot a lot of different courses. From my experience, most qual courses out there are pretty basic - variations of one standard course or another, maybe a FLETC PPC with one or two quirks thrown in for good measure. One has more rounds from close in, another from farther away, one agency double-taps, another doesn't. Etc. What most seemed to have in common was the fact that you have to have pretty much slept through your basic firearms training and never learned ANYTHING in order to fail them.

For that reason, my agency really doesn't put that much stock in our actual "course" anymore. We shoot it in order to be "qualified" and check that liability box, but we spend as little time on it as possible and move on to other stuff - different courses at different ranges, different targets and scenarios, using a rifle and/or shotgun in conjunction with a handgun on the same range, running and shooting, shooting from vehicles, etc.

I think you'll probably see more and more agencies doing this, 50 yard course or not.

Just my opinion.

k

1811narc23

05-30-2007, 09:55

slwog- I agree, I don't think it could hurt knowing how to shoot accurately from that great of a distance.
I'm curious as to why the DEA is the only agency left qualifying at that kind of distance? What was the reasoning behind agencies such as the FBI and others for no longer doing the 50 yard qual. ?

VT Troop- I agree with you completely as well. I said more or less the same thing to the police officers who told me their thoughts on it. I said yeah, in a city or residential situation I don't think you would really take that shot but if no one was around (wooded area, etc.) and you were being fired on then it would be great to have some confidence and experience firing at that kind of distance.
The comment about knowing how to fire with your opposite hand I agree with being essential to know. I am more worried about qualifying with my opposite hand at the Academy than anything else because I am so right-handed it's not even funny. :)

krellum

05-30-2007, 10:47

I'm curious as to why the DEA is the only agency left qualifying at that kind of distance? What was the reasoning behind agencies such as the FBI and others for no longer doing the 50 yard qual. ?

Here's the answer...

Like a lot of weapon/firing range issues, whether your agency does this as part of an actual qual or not is probably more dependent on what your firearm guys happen to think than anything else.

I don't think there IS a specific answer. Why would a particular agency NEED to be proficient at a longer range than another? I can't really think of a good reason, unless you can make the argument that you're always going to be working outdoors, on open plains or in the desert, and will always have particularly long fields of fire/distances to engage a target. But even then, there are MOUNTAINS in the desert, too, right? So the "why"-question means very little, here. Case in point: I work outside all the time - probably more than most 1811's - and my agency does not have a 50-yard portion in our course of fire. And I have to do my share of work indoors, too.

Again, whenever you have firearm carry or shooting policy questions or wonder why you carry X-brand instead of Y-brand pistol, it'll usually be because a firearm training coordinator (and/or a SAC or Chief who happened to agree with him/her) advocated doing it that way.

k

TANKMGA8

05-30-2007, 12:39

My agency requires us to Qual out at the 50 yard line, all three times we Qual each year. It is from the prone and as far as why, because they tell us we have to, kind of like Krellum is saying.

The fifity yard shot is not that hard, all you have to do is focus on your basics, and you will hit where you need to hit. Front site and trigger squeeze, and you will be hitting the five rings each time.

Our agency has to Qual the state qual and then we have our own qual that we have to shoot. Our qual is tougher, but having to pass both is not really all that demanding. Besides, the department gives us all these rounds to shoot, so we all go out and have fun, and get or quals out of the way. We also shoot stress courses as part of our quals, with the pistol, shotgun, and AR-15, we also have courses where we have to shoot the pistol and rifle or pistol and shotgun.

Jedi

05-30-2007, 14:11

Just another perspective here, and that's the side of personal responsibility. I'm sure everybody from every agency knows a large number of people that ONLY shoot during quals. If you're one of those people, it doesn't matter if you have to shoot from the 50 or not, because you're going to have problems regardless. Likewise, if you think you need to be proficient from the 50 but your dept/agency doesn't require it, then go somewhere on your own time and fire from as far out as you think necessary. It can only help.

ronin100

05-30-2007, 16:59

Although the percentages may go down as you get further away - and the likelyhood of trying to take that shot in real applications is small because of the risk, wouldn't it stand to reason that your accuracy at close range would only increase as you improved your longer range skills?

EXACTLY!!
Fundamentals are everything. You shouldn't do/not do something just because you are farther/closer away, i.e. grip, stance, trigger pull. Practice the same funda's, no matter what. Repetition, will build that muscle memory, and that is what keeps your results up.
You may change it up on the golf course, but I've never been feloniously assaulted by a golf ball.
Shooting skills are perishable, if you don't keep them up, you lose your fine tunning. Building confiedence @ the 50 will only help your shooting skills, at every distance in between. Also, as others have pointed out, please don't say, "I'll never take that shot." You never know.

As to requirement of a 50 yrd qual shot, I can attest that in FL, the farthest shot is 15 yards! This is in the minnimum requirement re-cert course set forth by CJSTC, the governing body for LE agencies, in FL.

TXStateCop

05-30-2007, 19:46

From the agencies I have seen here in Texas, 15 to 25 yards is about the furthest distance one will shoot for qualification.

When I went through Firearms Instructors School, we shot at six inch paper pates at 50 yards, which was a good way to hone in the fundamentals. I am like others in that I believe that shooting at long distances builds confidence, ability and accuracy, which will only improve at closer distances.

In training others, I want them to feel confident with their weapon so that they can approach a situation with the tools they need to come out on top. Officers often complain about having to shoot with their reaction hand rather than their weapon hand. When we hear about situations where officers have their weapon hand disabled and they are unable to fire or reload, it is a very sad situation that in most instances could have been eliminated. I like to build the confidence of shooters that they can accurately fire with their reaction hand and reload as well. Once they see that it can be done, and we practice it often, you notice how much more confident the handle themselves and their weapon.

Practice for the worse case scenario and hope it never comes.

satpak77

05-30-2007, 21:38

DEA does and to the best of my knowledge Border Patrol does. I believe the FBI does but I think the 50 is not part of the "official" score at the FBI, just for "familiarization" type practice. I could be wrong, FBI guys chime in.

Shooting from the 50, while admittedly more difficult than from 5 yards, is still about sight picture and trigger control, amongst other things.

It is not impossible, 5500 DEA Agents and 13,000 Border Patrol Agents do it multiple times a year.

SonRunner

05-31-2007, 03:43

My agency requires us to Qual out at the 50 yard line, all three times we Qual each year. It is from the prone and as far as why, because they tell us we have to, kind of like Krellum is saying.I think DEA's 50 yard shooting is prone also. But someone also told me that from the 50, they shot some prone, and some standing around a baracade stong and weak hand.

ATF SAC

05-31-2007, 06:35

DMClark and I go back to the days when you went to the 50 with a model 36 or 60, sometimes a model 10 with a 2". A bit like shooting NBA 3 pointers with the fixed sights and meager focal plane. Better in ATF when we fully standardized with the 66, but it got dropped as a requirement in the late 80's right about the time we transitioned to the Sig.

Point is well made that it is a way to emphasize basic shooting skills, but the decision in ATF was to emphasize tactical decisions, movement, reloading and accuracy at speed at ranges that reflect the predominant distances our shootings and most police shooting occur. Most ATF qualification rounds go out between 15 and 3. Could well have changed since I left, but when I did we were shooting twice a year for qual and twice a year in tactical live fire (movement and cover) training.

View is that 50 is the place for the long gun and for seeking cover with the handgun.

4 days at the range a year is pretty minimal and hugely expensive so the decision was to sharpen the high probablilities and the functional disciplines (better be aware of rounds fired and rounds left since you will reload on your own).

Do not consider this one of those right way/wrong way issues. Perfectly rational emphasis for the world ATF lives in. Far different than the world of State Patrol officers and Natural Resources LE for example.

Overall found that most folks qualify very well indeed, and sound shooting fundamentals apply at all distances. Probably some variability among divisions (there always is). My stand was no qualify, no gun - no gun, no car - no car, no LEAP and we would do remedial extra shooting days for folks who had let the basics slip. Sort of the rules, but also a matter of this being something most will never have to do but those that do had better do very well indeed.

Short nasty version,there is no rule prohibiting doing extra shooting on your own to sharpen skills at any distance. However, if it were necessary for a lot of LEOs to buy a box of rounds on their own dime to finish a gunfight they would not.

Group 9

05-31-2007, 07:14

The 50 yard course is not the only qualification course DEA runs, but you do have to pass it every qualification. You also have some 25 yard courses, and you run combat courses twice a year.

I hate shooting the 50 yard course, and for the same reason most people do, it is hard. I can routinely crank off 100 per cent scores on the 25 yard course, but I have to be having a good day to do it on the 50 yarder course. They did change it from standing and kneeling to prone from the fifty a few years ago, which made it a whole lot easier. But it is still ten percent of your score. So if you can't get any in from the 50, you start out with a 90 per cent score.

My understanding is that DEA keeps it in, as a reminder of marksmanship fundamentals. You can get away with a sloppy sight picture and crappy trigger manipulation at 15 yards. You can't get away with it at 50 yards, the theory being it makes everyone better shots at all speeds and distances.

And, I do know guys who could routinely put all their shots in at fifty yards with a .38 snubby, even back when we had to to it standing and kneeling. The guns are all more than accurate enough to do it. Watch the silouhette guys knock out targets at 200 yards at a match one day to see how good off the shelf guns can be.

But, a joke at DEA is that we shoot at 50 yards to remind us of why most of us shouldn't try and shoot somebody from 50 yards away.

dmclark

05-31-2007, 16:41

I qualified for alot of years (!) with my Model 60, incorporating the 50 yard line. Hell, with revolvers it was 6 prone, 6 standing weak and 6 standing strong. Some serious Kentucky windage with that Chief at 50 yards!

Can you IMAGINE the OPR review of any shots from 50 yards!!!

ATF SAC

05-31-2007, 20:03

Remember too well, DM. On a nice sunny day there was only the memory of a sight picture down that 60. Accuracy was in the range of a matchlock smoothbore and I believe that was 15 of 50 rather than the 60 that go into today's quals. But by God, we shot in the 90s or were the butt of rude jokes. With the Sig 9 and later .40, if you weren't above 95 we threatened to shoot you and use you as cover.

TXStateCop

05-31-2007, 22:00

Ya'll mention qualifying at 50 yards with a model 60 and it reminded me of watching my Captain as a young officer shoot his 60 at 50 yards. I watched in amazement as he had 2-3 inch groups at that distance and I was glad to have all my rounds in the five point area. He was a wealth of knowledge and really helped me develop my skills. Of course, the fact he was an active PPC competitor with several trips to the Bianchi Cup didn't hurt either. :)

dmclark

06-01-2007, 21:29

Hell, since we're strolling down memory lane....what about AFTER a full day at the range. Guns cleaned and off to some great spot for burgers and beers and then home early. All this in the G car! Never any problems, but I can see the fits today.

TXStateCop

06-01-2007, 22:15

Good memories....range day used to be a good opportunity to break out the BBQ pit, sit around and swap war stories and politically incorrect jokes. Of course, after the shooting and clean of weapons, a few adult beverages could be shared.

A little more strolling down memory lane brings us to the time when a co worker would show you their latest duty weapon and you could pull over to do a little test firing on the side of the road. Of course one would shoot in a safe direction with a decent back stop.

Of course trying to do any of that, or even thinking of it, would be verboten today....

Group 9

06-03-2007, 00:32

nsedet

06-03-2007, 00:47

DEA does and to the best of my knowledge Border Patrol does. I believe the FBI does but I think the 50 is not part of the "official" score at the FBI, just for "familiarization" type practice. I could be wrong, FBI guys chime in.

BP stopped shooting handguns from the 50 when they transitioned to semiautomatics, or shortly thereafter, unless things have changed under CBP. I can remember shooting from the 50 on occasion during quarterly range days, and once from 100, but that was driven by our local firearms guys who rotated various stress courses, transition courses and other drills each time we went out for quals.

satpak77

06-03-2007, 00:54

BP stopped shooting handguns from the 50 when they transitioned to semiautomatics, or shortly thereafter, unless things have changed under CBP. I can remember shooting from the 50 on occasion during quarterly range days, and once from 100, but that was driven by our local firearms guys who rotated various stress courses, transition courses and other drills each time we went out for quals.

semiauto's meaning which gun? I was in BP when they went from Pistol to the Beretta 92 and at that time (96-ish) we shot from the 50.

Maybe not anymore, but back then we did...

Sandles2Sidearm

06-03-2007, 10:34

nsedet

06-03-2007, 10:42

semiauto's meaning which gun? I was in BP when they went from Pistol to the Beretta 92 and at that time (96-ish) we shot from the 50.

Beretta 96D, plus the various semiautos that were approved after that (Sig and HK). They initially kept the 50 yard line during the transition but by early 97 had changed the course to stop at the 25.

nsedet

06-03-2007, 10:48

Sandles with a pistol at 50 yards under stress-----I would be better off down loading and throwing my pistol at them.

Perhaps I could say some mean things to spice it up too.....50 yards....get your agency to give you a Shot gun, Sub gun, or better an M4.... 50 yards....the very thought makes me want to call my FLEOA rep.

Nice to have a long gun available but not always an option when you need it. When BP had two agents killed in 1998 in south Texas, one of the other agents on scene returned fire from 50 yards out with his Beretta and was able to drop the suspect (who was armed with an assault rifle) with the second round he fired.