Trauma Plates

[Joeyd16779]

I am hoping you folks can help me out. I have taken on a huge project, that has now become two-fold, one use will be for a work proposal and another will be towards my masters degree.

We have all heard "Trauma plates are dangerous, can cause ricochets and kill you." This is typically heard when the discussion turns to hard trauma plates. I am trying to either prove such, or be the new Mythbuster of such. I also want to back up my study with hard facts and any cases where such may have occurred.

I am in the process of contacting the major body armor companies for information. Most have been very receptive and sending me information they have. But does anyone out there have FIRST HAND knowledge (not the old friend of a friend or the hear the next tow that a ......) of a ricochet off a trauma plate causing injury?

I would appreciate any details, referrals or insight you may provide. I want to include all data available, favorable or unfavorable to my theories.

Thanks!
-Joe

[modareguy]

You may want to consider contacting the National Institute of Justice. They do all kinds of LE related studies, and may have information regarding your particular request.

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/nij/welcome.html

[kennethm3]

"Trauma plates are dangerous, can cause ricochets and kill you." No, I have never heard that. In fact, in is probably the most ignorant safety thing I have read after "I don't wear seat belts because they could trap me in my car". Please! I think a little spalling is far more preferable to the penetration caused by a high powered rifle round penetrating your soft armor.

[Joeyd16779]

"Trauma plates are dangerous, can cause ricochets and kill you." No, I have never heard that. In fact, in is probably the most ignorant safety thing I have read after "I don't wear seat belts because they could trap me in my car". Please! I think a little spalling is far more preferable to the penetration caused by a high powered rifle round penetrating your soft armor.

I agree. In my time with the NYPD, several old timers would tell guys that. Obviously it was something they were told, but there were far and few comments. Until Thursday when a represenative from a MAJOR body armor company was doing our fittings and gave the office the speech that there is "...absolutley no reason for a hard trauma plate. It will richcohet and could kill you." This went on for over an half hour!

Though I have 5 years experience (4 local and 1 federal), I still am the new guy in the office and kept my mouth shut. The rep continued to say "I can shoot at any hard trauma plate from 5' and make it ricochet up." I did not open my mouth, but decided it is times to do a proposal with the facts and send a copy to the rep and his supervisor.

[gaboy]

"Trauma plates are dangerous, can cause ricochets and kill you." No, I have never heard that. In fact, in is probably the most ignorant safety thing I have read after "I don't wear seat belts because they could trap me in my car". Please! I think a little spalling is far more preferable to the penetration caused by a high powered rifle round penetrating your soft armor.

I have heard that a trauma plate can cause ricochets, but I offer no evidence to support it. In theory it does make sense to me though. If a round is fired at the right angle, it could deflect off the plate and hit an area not protected by the vest.

As far as a trauma plate stopping the penetration of a high powered rifle round. I'm not buying in to that one. If we are talking about a traditional trauma plate in a level 2 or level 3 vest, it aint gonna happen. Trauma plates in these types of vest were designed to defeat edged weapons and help with blunt force attacks. If we are talking about one of those vest that weigh about 45 lbs, yes those special inserts can stop rifle rounds but I don't think that the original question was referring to those. My read on it was the old urban legend about a traditional vest with trauma plate inserts.

For the record, I don't use the trauma plates.

[FLEPro2B]

Several years ago I read a news article about a police officer who had been killed after being shot. The round struck the curved metal trauma plate in his vest and ricocheted up, striking him under the jaw. While I remember that there were specific details included in the article (i.e., officer's name, department, city, etc.), I don't remember the details themselves.

This article stuck in my mind because I was working as an armed guard at a bank in SoCal at the time, and decided to do without the trauma plate in my vest after reading the article.

I tried to do an Internet search, but came up with a very long list of unrelated sites. I hope you fare better in your research. Good luck!

[Jedi]

Ok, I won't discount the possibility that a bullet can ricochet off the plate, given physics and math. However, here's my question: What are the odds? Probably the same odds that in that gunfight, you'll get shot in the head, or the bullet will find that unprotected spot in your vest, or any number of other things. Personally, I'll take my chances with the hard plate. Like somebody else said, it's like not wearing your seat belt so you don't get trapped in your car.

[methos_tj]

I have heard the "legend" but never had any experiences. I would imagine that if you research the history of the ballistic vest and find out that some of the early models used a steel (or blend thereof) for the plates that there may have in fact been instances where what you say happened. I would venture to argue that in our day and age this is very unlikely to happen because 1.) most ballistic trauma plates are "soft" and 2.) newer rifle plates or high threat level plates are ceramic which shatter after/during impact. Of course stranger things have happened.

Sounds corny but you should try e-mailing the duo from Mythbusters I bet they would be a wealth of knowledge and you may even get the kudos for their next show:D plus a definite A on the project when you provide the professor with the tape!

[Jedi]

Sounds corny but you should try e-mailing the duo from Mythbusters I bet they would be a wealth of knowledge and you may even get the kudos for their next show:D plus a definite A on the project when you provide the professor with the tape!

I actually had that exact same thought, and second the suggestion of contacting those guys to see what they can do with it.

[ronin100]

Every range qual. I try to get hold of an "old" vest, and shoot the heck out it. Mostly in an attempt to convince those that still do not wear one, to do so, dunno, guess prove they do work or something. I've shot them with both the soft and hard trauma plates. Last time I did this, the vest was set against the berm backstop, thus at an upward angle from the point I was shooting. No ricochetes that I can attest to. One round stuck into the hard plate, not penetrating it. Did not recover others fired into plate.
The shots were with 180gr. .40cal, JHP From about 10 feet away. Most rounds like that that are recovered from the ballistic vest have good deformation and mushrooming. Not to say ricochetes are not possible, I have seen people stung by jacketing flying back after an errant strike to the metal target frames, go figure. (Another good reason to wear your vest at the range!)
Like was mentioned, taking into account physics, gravity, curveture of the earth, and luck...bullets do starnge things. All things being equal, a round could take a weird angle after striking your badge or the pen in your pocket!
Are my range demos, a controlled scientific test of your problem, not in the least. In posing the question, think I'll put a gallon jug of water or something at the "head" of the vest next time.

[gaboy]

[QUOTE=ronin100;471011] No ricochetes that I can attest to. One round stuck into the hard plate, not penetrating it. Did not recover others fired into plate.

Ronin help me out here. Not sure how many shots you fired at the plate, but you stated one stuck in it, and the rest were not recovered. It would seem to me that all the rounds that were not recovered were ricocheted away. Not trying make things over simplified since I was not there, but that was my take on things.

[jnc36rcpd]

The Prince George's County (MD) Police Department researched this issue several years ago. If I recall the results, a round could richochet off a hard trauma plate, but it required the round to impact at a pretty severe angle (e.g.: a suspect on the floor firing up at the officer).

PGPD then became concerned that a suspect firing from this position could cause a soft trauma plate to be pushed up from the plate pocket, possibly startling the officer (as if being shot wouldn't be enough of a surprise). PGPD required trauma plate pockets be sewn partially shut to prevent this occurrence.

I don't know why PGPD became so obsessed with this issue. If you contact them, they may have a copy of the report available.

[Joeyd16779]

The Prince George's County (MD) Police Department researched this issue several years ago. If I recall the results, a round could richochet off a hard trauma plate, but it required the round to impact at a pretty severe angle (e.g.: a suspect on the floor firing up at the officer).

PGPD then became concerned that a suspect firing from this position could cause a soft trauma plate to be pushed up from the plate pocket, possibly startling the officer (as if being shot wouldn't be enough of a surprise). PGPD required trauma plate pockets be sewn partially shut to prevent this occurrence.

I don't know why PGPD became so obsessed with this issue. If you contact them, they may have a copy of the report available.

Thanks!

[ronin100]

[QUOTE=ronin100;471011] No ricochetes that I can attest to. One round stuck into the hard plate, not penetrating it. Did not recover others fired into plate.

Ronin help me out here. Not sure how many shots you fired at the plate, but you stated one stuck in it, and the rest were not recovered. It would seem to me that all the rounds that were not recovered were ricocheted away. Not trying make things over simplified since I was not there, but that was my take on things.

Again not a scientific experiment, just wanted to see if I could penetrate the plate with my duty ammo. Last time I did it was in April, this year. Fired three rounds into plate. Two rounds, made indentations that were pretty square to the plate, not quite 90 degrees since the vest was lying at a slight angle against the berm. One was stuck into the plate, but not by much, since it dropped into the pocket area when I recovered the plate. I only accounted for the one round at the time. I then fired another 11 rds into the soft panels of the vest w/o the plate. These were recovered from the vest.
As to the two other hits on the plate, there were indentations that looked like strikes from a ball-peen hammer. The plate was only slightly otherwise deformed. Again, without another possible target in what would be the head, or legs in relation to the vest, cannot say if the rounds would have prepetuated the concern originally brought up. My understanding of the original question is to the prospect of a ricochete going from the plate and into the body of the "wearer". Of course, the rounds went somewhere, but at what angle, and what velocity I cannot say.
A slightly convex metal plate on your chest as a target area certainly introduces the possibility of the round going somewhere else after it impacts, that I will not dispute. As to what danger this exposes the wearer to seems is open to debate. I like my metal trauma plate. The blunt force disapation from a stike by a knife, or other attack, to me makes up for the "possibility" that a round will ric' off and into my body.
Hopefully Joyed's research will yield some good data in this regard. A vest company rep's job is to sell what they got. Won't get into all that, but if NIJ has info that says that hard plates are dangerous, I'll be glad to revist my comfort with them. My own curiosity is peaked now with all this, but I just don't have an excess of plates, and vests to shoot in order to develop my own research.

[msu_cj_grad]

I just wear 2 plates. Soft on the outside, hard on the inside, then vest. Hopefully, I'm protected.:D

[Joeyd16779]

I am thankful for all....research has begun....and some interesting people are helping. I will keep you all informed.

[Sandles2Sidearm]

To many variables:

Type, size, weight of round used in the test- 7.62 vs. 9mm

Distances- 12 feet vs. 100 meters (if you have shot steel, the splash back effect gives you some indication of that variable)

Angles-

Ceramic-Multi Strike or Single Strike
Steel- same issue

Plate carrier material- more viscous vs. adhesive, stationary vs. floating


Have heard at least one story of a ricochet doing some damage, to a guy's face, but he lived to tell the story...

I think you should also look into guys wearing "just" plates, displaced shock trauma, vs those wearing rifle plates over IIIA. That said I would bet something is better than nothing.