9mm abroad

[MarcusAruelius]

I find it very interesting that, while American police and LE personnel, who are arguably the best trained and most skilled in the world, overwhelmingly prefer .40 or .45 caliber to 9mm, it seems that virtually all of the rest of the world's most elite police and military organizations use the 9mm, almost without exception (or at least this is what I have seen and heard). How is such a glaring disparity explained?

[kennethm3]

Quite easily; law. In most European countries pistol calibers are limited to no larger than 9mm. It isn't that foreign police officers prefer 9mm; it is just what they are stuck with.

Me, I prefer the people I might have to shoot stay down. 9mm does not have that reputation. Just ask the perp shot by an off-duty DSS agent a few years ago in NYC. The guy takes 11 9mm hits from close quarter range and is not only still alive when EMS arrives but is lucid enough to complain that he doesn't feel well.

[MarcusAruelius]

Interesting, but it still doesnt account for the overwhelming prevalence of the 9mm in sidearms carried by many of the most elite military forces around the world, which Im assuming are not subjects to restrictions on what size caliber they may carry.

The purpose of this thread is not to debate 9mm vs .40/.45 cal. I became interested after I purchased my Glock G22 and the dealer gave me some sort of Glock promotional magazine along with the weapon. In the magazine were profiles of the many police and military organizations which have adopted the Glock as their duty sidearm. Almost without exception, US agencies used .40 or .45 cal while agencies and elite forces, both military and civilian, in Europe, Asia, the Middle East, and Latin America ALL used the 9mm. This seemed really odd to me

[kennethm3]

9mm is the official NATO caliber, born out of the restriction I mentioned earlier. Militaries that train and fight together like to share calibers; it shortens logistical trains, hence 9mm, 5.56, 7.62X55, .50 are fairly universal outside former ComBloc countries (7.65, 5.45, 7.62x33, 14.5.) .40 is fairly new; from the mid nineties. It was embraced by U.S. law enforcement, that is why you find U.S. law enforcement using it by a large majority. 6.8mm and .40 are now being embraced by U.S. military units, because we are our our logistical train, it doesn't really matter to us what France, the Congo, and Poland fight with. .45 has traditionally been a U.S. caliber. hence, little favor for it outside the U.S. with the exception of countries that manufactured Colt pistols under license. I think that if you look at a country's military alignment (west or east) and who it buys its weapons from (for example FN and Beretta did not until very recently make .45 pistols) you will see easily identifiable reason for why they buy and use what they do.

[Grudd]

I find it very interesting that, while American police and LE personnel, who are arguably the best trained and most skilled in the world...

I would agree that American LE are highly trained and skilled but having worked with some of the other agencies throughout the world I wouldn't say we are above all the rest. Many others could probably give some of ours a run for the money.

They deal with terrorism daily and treat things different than the U.S.

[MarcusAruelius]

Grudd-

Agreed 100 percent. Im curious to know though, if elite and truly combat tested forces like Israeli Shin Bet and Brazilian BOPE use 9mm because they find it their preferred combat cartridge or because of legal and logistical constraints as noted above.

[kennethm3]

I forgot to mention; 9mm is CHEAP another reason for prevalence, bean counters love cheap.

[dmclark]

There is no way you could compare ballistics with the 9mm and .40 or .45 and arrive at any other conclusion that they are superior to the 9mm.

Our caliber choices are the envy of LE organizations worldwide, who have little choice but to accept the PC-driven choices for "military-police forces"

There has been incredible levels of testing and research into caliber selections for our LE agencies. That everyone (fed LE) is not carrying calibers above the 9mm are a testment to lousy senior management who don't want to invest the time/effort into required platform testing to make the change, or are too jealous of other agencies to do a piggy back on weapons contacts.

[TXStateCop]

Here is another twist. The .357 Sig round is another interesting variation of the 9mm caliber with its high velocity round. I have found several who do not like the 9mm, but like .357 sig. It seems velocity is a key component in the .357 sig to making it a round that enjoys a good reputation.

I have no idea what bullet type, weight and velocity the rounds folks in other countries use, but I know that NATO 9mm rounds are pretty hot loads, so they may be using them.

Then too, lots of foreign countries have officers with SMGs which are 9mm, so while their pistols may not have high velocity loads, the rounds out of the rifle will certainly be moving along quickly.

Would be interesting to see what loads they use. I still love the .45 for a duty round. I saw a signature on another forum for a member that said. "A 9mm may expand, but a .45 will never shrink." Something to think about.

[Sgt Jon]

Let me add the interoperability factor, in that departments that decided to allow Officers to carry what they wanted under guidelines, the issue of passing off ammo to another Officer in a gunfight and having a different caliber came up.

In my honest opinion there is more “craze” here over the latest type of round available, some mope gets hit the aforementioned 11 times and every badge screams for a round with more nock down power=one shot/one kill.

Anyone remember the 10 mm round…?

If you look into the deployment of the .45 cal with the US Military, it arguably stems from the battles in the Philippines (?) where the enemy was hopped up on this or that and wrapped their upper body in banana leaves to keep the blood from rushing out of the organ sac. Seems the rifle rounds were just going through and through.

More goes into stopping power than the actual size of the round; it is shot placement, angle of impact, determination of the foe and in some cases if they are somehow not feeling the pain.

I have worked homicides where there deceased was hit in the elbow with a .25 cal and died of massive blood loss/shock.

And as already cited, it also comes down to Public Opinion and what the politicos will let you do; look at predominantly unarmed agencies across the pond who have arguably the most compelling reason to pack heat and yet have to wait for the Armed Response Unit to show up.

And hey, MarcusAruelius thank you for the kind notes but in the end we are all doing the same job; under austere conditions and at times with little public support.

[No One Special]

We have a LARGE and generally gun friendly, country here. So companies can market differant calibers here and have a large civilan market for thier products.

Also 9mm isn't that bad!
Europeans do load thier 9mm pretty hot too.

I am debating whether to get .380, 9mm, or .357 SIG for off duty myself

I still dont know what I will get

[rzaruba]

I saw a signature on another forum for a member that said. "A 9mm may expand, but a .45 will never shrink." Something to think about.

Yes, that.

And

A .45 is a pre-expanded 9MM.