View Full Version : Carrying off duty at your "civilian" job
Gentlemen, I have been reading the forum since starting an open enrollment academy here in Ohio 5 months ago and I would value your advice. I have a nagging question that I'd like some "outside" opinions on, being that I don't know a lot of officers that are part-time. I am fortunate that I will likely secure a commission on a local department soon after graduation, I am going for part-time. I have a good-paying full time job on the shop floor at a larger sized company as a machinist. I don't plan to quit this job until I have some experience as a patrolman, and the right job is lined up. I have always agreed with several friends that are officers (full-time) that you should ALWAYS be prepared, even off-duty. How does this fit in when working at a civillian job? With the number of people constantly coming and going (100-500 depending on shift), and absolutley no security whatsoever the shop would not be hard for anyone with a score to settle to wander into. How have others here dealt with carrying (concealed), dealing with management, etc. Would it be better to approach them before hand, or just carry concealed and deal with it if I am ever confronted about it? The only part-time officer I have asked about it said "I carry ALL the time since 9/11, and I'll find another job if they have a problem with it"
Thoughts?
Tim
Flatfoot003
02-22-2002, 09:12
Key thing here is the company policy on weapons. If they prohibit their employees from carrying weapons on their property I would approach them (management) and explain the situation. The fact that you are going to be a state certified LEO should exempt you from not being able to carry on their property, even if you are an employee. If they do not have a policy on carrying weapons, I would carry and keep it to myself, either way you want as few people to know that you are packing. IF, as you stated someone does come to work with intentions of settling a score, then you wouldn't want that person to know you probably have the means to stop him or her. I hope things work out for you, either way good luck and be smart about how you carry/employ/train with that weapon.
Stay Safe, Flatfoot 003
Sounds like your friend has the right attitude. After all, what's more important? Some part time civillian job or your safety?
But, you really should say nothing unless asked. After all, it is perfectly legal to carry concealed off duty. Furthermore, the fewer people who know you are carrying, the better. Otherwise, in a situation (armed robbery or serious life threatening felony) you may lose the benefit of surprise because someone may announce your a cop or armed. Keep what you do and what you carry as quiet as possible.
Kahuna5150
02-22-2002, 09:51
Here in CA Reserve Police Officers are not considered peace officers off duty, (unless they are designated level I's) and cannont carry concealed without a CCW permit. Even if Ohio extends law enforcement authority to off duty reserve officers, I think, (although you are covered legally) your job has a right to say you can't carry while working under their employment.
I guess basically you are clear law wise so you couldn't be charged or arrested for carrying, but I'm pretty sure your business has the right to refuse to let anyone carry weapons on the property, (off duty of course not on duty or in the line of duty).
Be careful so you don't get in trouble with your job that puts the money on the table for you. I personally would not disclose the fact I am carrying concealed to anyone, (my boss or otherwise). It is my responsibility to keep it concealed and I'm sure your boss already knows you are getting on with a department, (Background check interview).
I totally agree with the above posts, the fewer people that know the better!
Kahuna
NO,NO,NO! Think for a second. What if you get into an argument with anyother employee and he/she notices the gun and says something to the management. If for one second you think you won't get canned over it think again. This would most likely happen as opposed to viewing an armed robbery or something like that. You won't get backing from your department either. Being PART-TIME you are very expendable. The department will just find someone to fill your place rather than get the department in the spotlight. JUST REMEMBER THIS, this would be your civilian job and not your law enforcement one. It would definitely be in your best interest to not even bring up the subject to your employers because believe it or not some people don't like the police and you may just get that person.
this is only my opinion and I don't want to offend any part time officers.
kennethm3
02-22-2002, 12:06
You are putting your full-time employer in some legal quicksand if you are carrying while on the job on "his dime". You are a reserve officer, not doing law enforcement while "at work" at your regular job. Lock it up at home or at the station, You don't need it.
Ok, I didn't realize we were talking about a part time position. That said....
If you are employed as a police officer in a jurisdiction that:
1) allows you to carry 24/7 and
2) authorizes you as a peace officer or police officer regardless of duty status,
ONLY THEN, would I say that you should carry concealed and tell no one. Not for the pupose of being a "hero" (actualy a fool) but for personal protection.
Keep in mind, you'd probably be in a mess afterward, but it would be worth it if you were doing it to save your life. Isn't that the point?
K9 Police
02-22-2002, 18:22
To be blunt...NO!
It would ask for more trouble than good.
K9
Thanks for some thought-provoking replys. Let me clear a thing or 2 up. I will not be a reserve officer. I will be a part time, fully sworn officer working on a department approximately 1 mile from my civilian job. My department allows full carry privileges when off duty, using our service weapon, or off-duty weapon. The posts suggesting carrying, and telling NOBODY make the most sense to me.
I do value this job, but it's not special or anything. I place MUCH more value on my upcoming LE job, as I plan to transition to LE full time as the circumstances allow.
Unless the dept says you “Must” carry off duty, then I wouldn’t carry when working off duty, especially in a factory setting, etc. If someone goes “Postal” and they know you carry, who do you think will be # 1 on their list??? Besides, there is lot of responsibility that goes along with just owning a hand gun and a lot more when you start carrying one. To me, anyone that would carry under the circumstances that you described, would just be doing it to be show boating, but that’s only my opinion.
I appreciate your opinion. However, considering it is no secret at the shop that I am in LE (academy), and graduating soon I would be the #1 target of anyone "going postal" regardless of being armed or not. "show-boating" is not a relevant question because if I chose to inform the company, the only individuals who would know would be a select few in upper management. The fewer people who know, the better.
The more I think about it, the better off I would be if nobody but myself knew for sure I WAS or WAS NOT carrying at any given time. As one officer told me, his standard reply to the "are you carrying" question when asked is "If I was, you would'nt know it".
It is not of immedate concern to me,but I would like to hear from an officer or 2 that is in a similar position and what they did.
williamssd
02-22-2002, 23:02
The department that has given me a conditional offer has a policy where an officer moonlighting (i.e. any other work besides LE that would want an armed employee) is not allowed to carry. If the officer is off-duty and not working for an entity that would benefit from carrying a department-issued weapon, they are allowed concealed carry priviledge.
Better to know the policy/laws/rules before the SHTF.
Stay safe,
- Steve
OHcop2BE
02-24-2002, 22:25
I have a question...would you bring any of the tools you use at the shop on patrol with you???? I don't get why you would bring your weapon to the "other" job with you, you ARE there to be a machinist and not a cop right????
OHcop2Be
No, you wouldn't bring machinist tools to your job as a police officer. But that is not a fair comparison.
The purpose of off duty carry is to protect one's self. Though unlikely in some places (and pretty likely here in NYC) you could run into someone that you crossed paths with on the job, who may be happy to take up an opportunity to settle a score while you're off duty.
I guess it all depends on alot of things ranging from company/agency policy, to the kind of town or city you work in.
It also depends on you. I have buddies in many different agencies. Some never carry except on duty and other guys are inseperable from their weapons. Follow the law, regulations, protocol and then lastly, your personal preference.
I doubt you'll run into some thing while your on patrol that would necessitate you to have a lathe handy.
Forgetting the legal and liability issues, my question would be how you could practically carry a firearm in a factory setting. I guess in part it depends on what you wear at work, what kind of weapon you carry, and how you will carry it...but, if your position involves manual labor, bending, reaching, lifting, and other movements, you will have a tough time keeping your weapon concealed at all times.
uofmhurdles
03-03-2002, 13:32
people dont seem to realize that as a sworn officer you are always an officer whethor you are working or not if someone would make a violent attempt at your civilian job i would still view myself as a police officer first and a civilian second and it would be my duty to perform to the expectations of a fully uniformed officer and whethor you are part time or full time the department has still invested funds into your training and hiring and would be behind you in any altercation you might have with your civilian employers and not only would your employers not mind having an armed off duty police officer at their business im sure they would prefer it.
kennethm3
03-03-2002, 15:09
Again I recommend that if you are a part-time LEO that you check with your full-time employer's lawyer before carrying at "work". You are exposing your employer to potential lawsuits should you "act". Get Wright's insurance too, you'll need it.
Originally posted by uofmhurdles
it would be my duty to perform to the expectations of a fully uniformed officer...
Bullsh*t. Off-duty, in plainclothes, you are NOT a "fully uniformed officer." It is asinine and dangerous to believe that you can take the same actions in the same manner that you would while on-duty, in uniform.
"if someone would make a violent attempt at your civilian job"
What is the most likely "violent" situation that is going to happen at a civilian job? Is it a shooting incident? Or, is it an argument between to coworkers? Assuming you are a cop (and actually I would assume you are not), would you ALWAYS take the same actions off-duty that you would on-duty? If a fistfight breaks out between to employees, is your view that you--as a presumably armed, off-duty LEO--should intervene? Without back-up? With (most likely) only your firearm? Without a radio? Consider that, by stepping in rather than calling 911 and acting as a witness, you have just introduced a gun into a fistfight.
Sometimes it is necessary to step into a situation while off-duty, in most cases it is not. First, in most cases, being a good witness is the best option. Second, it is pretty unlikely that you will be armed at ALL times...most agencies do not mandate 24/7 carry, and it is impractical or impossible to carry all day, every day (eg, you are going out drinking, working out at the gym, etc.). If you are not carrying at a time when something happens in your presence, are you required to take action (as a LEO)? Probably, but that requirement can be as simple as calling 911 and/or acting as a good witness. Being a cop does not require that you abandon common sense or go out and get yourself killed out of some idiotic notion that you have to. The situation and circumstances should dictate your actions, not some blind notion that you have to intervene.
Originally posted by uofmhurdles
. . . .the department has still invested funds into your training and hiring and would be behind you in any altercation you might have with your civilian employers and not only would your employers not mind having an armed off duty police officer at their business im sure they would prefer it. Think again, you’re wrong on all 3 counts!!! The only exception would be with an employer of a liquor store, a bank or a similar place of business that has a high probability of being robbed. And even then, the dept doesn’t want the liability of any actions you would take and most dept’s won’t allow their officers to work in a place of business where the probability of using their firearm exists. They just don’t want the liability. They want the liability to be with the place of business. I've seen a lot of officers hung out to dry by their dept, from actions they took while working a second job.
While individual agency policy, state law and your civillian employer are all variables here, the one thing that remains the same across the board is the carrying of a weapon off duty for the purpose of protecting one's self in a life threatening situation.
To carry your weapon off duty with any other purpose in mind is looking for trouble. Trouble with your agency, or worse, getting yourself killed.
"would be behind you in any altercation you might have with your civilian employers "
As far as that statement goes, plenty of Law Enforcement Officers have been jammed up from actions they took ON THE JOB. Getting jammed up off duty is alot easier.
uofmhurdles
03-04-2002, 20:13
As a police officer working off duty or at another job and a situation occurs that maybe your life is not in danger but perhaps anothers is would you not react to it? whethor you are carrying or not? I would because it would be my duty as a public defender to protect and serve. Well what about back-up? there will be times as a fully uniformed office where back-up will not be available and will leave you in a dangerous situation with out back up is this any different than a situation at a second job if you are allowed to concel, in a big factory someone will call 911 and bring backup and you as an off duty police officer could bring the situation down to a level that would restrain any violent behavior, its not going in half cocked and bringing a gun into a dangerous situation, it is a fully aware and trained officer using his weapon the same way he would in a situation he would encounter on duty. I believe that should the situation be handled legally and a potential catastrophy avoided any department would help the off duty officer in any sort of legal matter this is my own personal opinion but for the original question that was asked informing your employer and asking their permission to conceal would be the best course of action. I would guess that as a trained and sworn in police officer it would not be a problem. shoudl it be a problem for them, leaving it in the trunk of your car while at work would be my second advice.
Originally posted by uofmhurdles
As a police officer working off duty or at another job and a situation occurs that maybe your life is not in danger but perhaps anothers is would you not react to it? whethor you are carrying or not? I would because it would be my duty as a public defender to protect and serve.
Spoken like someone with no law enforcement experience.
Well what about back-up? there will be times as a fully uniformed office where back-up will not be available and will leave you in a dangerous situation with out back up is this any different
Yes, it is different. As an on-duty, uniformed cop, you are, well, in uniform...meaning, you have with you a radio, vest, OC spray, baton, spare magazines, duty weapon, etc. In most cases, while on-duty, you will be in contact with your dispatcher, and SOMEONE will know where you are...off-duty, that isn't the case. There are times when you need to act off-duty, but they are far, far fewer than when on-duty. If someone is not about to die, it probably is not worth getting involved in.
Just a thought, but maybe you should refrain from giving dangerous advice to cops--advice that runs contrary to basic officer survival principles that are widely accepted in law enforcement--until you have some actual experience to base your advice on.
Don't think that everyone is attacking you UofM. This is a board where people come to learn about law enforcement. There are people in basically every aspect of LE that can give you great advice on every topic you can think of. I would not however start giving advice out when you are not yet in the field. It could be very harmful, and have tramatic results. Many people read the boards for advice and take what they read as fact. If that advice is wrong or unfounded it could prove harmful. Better off asking the advice of the moderators and those already in the field. You can state your opinions and everyone will respect that, just don't start giving out advice on things that you aren't familiar with. Better off leaving that to the pro's. With that said welcome to the boards and I hope you stay awhile and listen and learn. This site is the most valuable resource that I have come across in my search to learn as much as possible about the LE field. Good luck and stay safe.
not to cut anyone down but you can definitely tell who are currently in the field. ALL current LEO can tell you that the job has changed in one way or the other since they put on the shield and there are days when you have to sit back and just wonder why they are doing this job. The fact is that it is the best job in the world but you don't wear a badge all the time. If you want to make a CAREER in LE you MUST seperate work from personal life or you will not make it. Only my opinion.
uofmhurdles
03-11-2002, 01:42
to clear up a little confusion, the only advice that i gave out was to talk to the factory manager prior to carrying/concealing, the rest was my OPINION i think that yes if you are going to carry/conceal at a different job and you do not take action as a sworn officer of the law to protect the innocent people who are in danger and yes very dangerous situations can occur as i recal about this time last year a former employee walked into the former factory that he worked in and opened fire on innocent workersm, killing at least 6 and wounding almost a dozen more to my knowledge and if i were in that factory carrying/concealing i would take action this is my opinion but i also think that if you are an offduty police officer carrying a weapon and you did not take action i view you as a coward and yes there are times as a officer when you will have no back up and will be too far out to recieve radio transmission would you then not take action, my brother who is a fully sworn police officer was involved in a police chase with a stolen vehicle, there were 2 other county squads involved in the chase and they were pulled from the chase my brother was instructed to proced with the chase, they then went over state lines and after the vehicle chrashed my brother was out of radio contact while he chased the suspect down would you have stopped the chase i doubt it if you would then you should not be a police officer, in my opinion that is part of the duty as a police officer and will you can seperate your personal with your professional lives you should take into account that if an incident occurs while you are offduty and you are concealing your weapon you should realize that your lack of action just because you are off duty could mean that someones brother, father mother sister spouse child might not come home because you failed to act. once again this is my OPINION.
Kahuna5150
03-11-2002, 02:33
Originally posted by uofmhurdles
my brother who is a fully sworn police officer was involved in a police chase with a stolen vehicle, there were 2 other county squads involved in the chase and they were pulled from the chase my brother was instructed to proced with the chase, they then went over state lines and after the vehicle chrashed my brother was out of radio contact while he chased the suspect down would you have stopped the chase i doubt it if you would then you should not be a police officer, in my opinion that is part of the duty
uofmhurdles,
First of all let me say that I recognize your emphasis that this is only your *OPINION* so please keep in mind what I write to you is my opinion only as well. Of course I would venture a guess that my opinion is probably shared by the vast majority of law enforcement officers that are currently working on the streets as I write this...
You say your brother is a fully sworn police officer who was involved in a veh chase that two other units were told to terminate the pursuit. I find it unusual that the circumstances around the chase would cause two other units to terminate and leave your brother all by himself. I would think one of the few reasons other units would terminate is due to a safety issue? Without getting more information from you we can only guess why the other units stopped, or why your brother continued.
As far as your *OPINION* about someone should not be a police officer if they stopped the chase in your above scenario. Well again this is a prime example of someone who is voicing their opinion, (and it is America after all!) about a subject they obviously have no knowledge of. Here's how it works in the real world... It is most certainly every law enforcement officers duty to try and apprehend those people that have committed a crime. You are chasing a stolen vehicle, then it is most certainly your duty to try and apprehend the person driving and to recover the car for the rightful owner.... *HOWEVER*
It is also your duty and responsibility to ensure the pursuit you are in is being conducted while viewing the totality of the circumstances. Should an officer continue a pursuit of a stolen car when it poses a greater than normal, (if you can say any vehicle pursuit is normal) risk for the officer, public, and suspect? Certainly you would be harder pressed to terminate a pursuit of a vehicle with a kidnap victim in it, or one that the person has just killed someone, but a straight stolen vehicle?
I will give you my *OPINION* on the matter. If you are the type of person who cannot use good judgment and weigh out the risk of the chase versus the need to apprehend a suspect then you should not be a police officer. If you think police work is like the movies and you're going to be engaging in massive shootouts with people all around, or you're going to be chasing a guy 120 MPH the wrong way up the freeway at night in the rain because he ran a stop sign and won't stop for your lights, you're under the wrong impression.
Should we make every effort to be diligent in our duties in the protection of life and property and to make arrests? Absolutely, we all swear an oath of office to do that. Should we assume that oath gives us permission to or demands we risk our lives and the lives of others unnecessarily? Absolutely not!
In law enforcement the ends do not justify the means. We have a tough job because we have to play by the rules even when the people we're dealing with don't. That's why you see a suspect blow the red light at an intersection at 60 MPH and why the marked police unit slows down to 10 MPH to clear the same intersection...
Kahuna
uofmhurdles
03-11-2002, 03:10
just to specify my brother is a local police officer and 2 state troopers that were involved in the chase were called off the chase because their supervisor told them too my brother then asked his supervisor if he should continue the chase he was told to stay with the vehicle and recieved a comendation due to his efforts
Just to put my .02 in....
I am not currently an LEO.. Was a part-time LEO several years ago and Now starting to test for a few agencies and go back after Schooling.... Just a little back ground.
I agree with Gonzo's Comment and that is what I was on scenerio I was told from the beginning of my interests in LE.. and it has never left my mind.. If you are off duty and Be it a bank, store, factory what ever and something goes bad you are stilling doing your job by being the best witness to what happened. By just sitting there taking everything in about the subject and relaying that to LE when you can is just what you are supposed to do... IF you were to take action as Gonzo Put it you would just be putting your self and the lives of others in danger. Yes if its a Bank robbery and 3 or 4 subjects are involved you may get one but how many other victums will there be???
Originally posted by uofmhurdles
there are times as a officer when you will have no back up and will be too far out to recieve radio transmission
Been there, done that. Which puts me well ahead of you. I would reply further, but think its sufficient to say that your complete lack of knowledge and experience shows up pretty well in your posts. And, in case you care, my earlier responses to you were not directed to you per se--as it is pretty clear you won't listen--but towards new and soon-to-be cops who need to think about officer safety regularly...and hopefully not listen to ignorant "opinions" of people who haven't learned from the past mistakes of others.
uofmhurdles
03-13-2002, 03:43
for anyone who wishes to comment on the new controversy i have started with my opinion on reacting to situations encountered while off duty i have a new thread posted "acting as an officer off duty" in law enforcement questions i would appreciate anyones opinion on this whethor you think it is a good idea or not, i started a new thread because we seem to have gotten off of the original question on whethor to carry at a civilian job or not so everyone enjoy the new post and keep the critism flowing
uofmhurdles
03-13-2002, 03:55
and to specify i never said anything about going in gang buster style my point was that if a situation occurs where human life is in danger and you are a off duty officer carrying, that is a lot different than going up against 4 guys with shotguns yes this is plain dumb to go against these odds i would never be that careless with my life however i know that if another individual was killed or injured while i was in a situation to help and i did nothing it would be a bitter pill to swallow. situations that occur i would take the actions that my training and knowledge would best be warranted, not to go out off duty and try to be a crime buster i do not expect to be making arrests or stopping crimes while off duty i am merely saying that carrying off duty is a good idea to preserve your safety and the safety of those around you and to use your training to assist officers who are working and responding to crimes that you are a witness to which might be getting descriptions, license plates maybe if vehicle is near by to attempt to follow the individuals,
live is prescious and i would never be careless with mine or anyone elses, hopefully this will end the confusion that i apparently started but i would appreciate anyone to post on my new thread about this controversy
thanks
uofmhurdles,
Your duplicate thread has been removed. There's no need for the second thread.
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