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  1. #1
    seaker is offline Officer
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    DOJ taking over DOD POLICE?

    I was told from a source in Hawaii that some of the 0083 detective positions were not filled. No one is sure why. One theory is that the Department of Justice might be taking over DOD civilian police in order to get an independent agency working police and investigations on bases. Can anyone substantiate this claim? I won’t to make it clear that this is second hand and maybe pure speculation. I am not trying to start an open ended rumor.

    seaker

  2. #2
    Kegan30317 is offline Sergeant
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    Hope this is not off topic, but exactly is the DOD police? Ran into one on a traffic stop the other day and wasn't quite sure if he was a Fed LEO, Security Guard or what? He said he was assigned to a local shipyard.
    "Gentlemen, get the thing straight once and for all– the policeman isn't there to create disorder, the policeman is there to preserve disorder." ~ Richard J. Daley

  3. #3
    nsedet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kegan30317 View Post
    Hope this is not off topic, but exactly is the DOD police? Ran into one on a traffic stop the other day and wasn't quite sure if he was a Fed LEO, Security Guard or what? He said he was assigned to a local shipyard.
    No such agency as "DOD Police," as each police agency within DOD and the military falls under the individual command it covers. Within DOD proper you have separate agencies for the Pentagon, DIA, DLA, NSA, and probably a few others. The military police agencies are actually employed by individual commands (bases) or regions depending on the branch. Policies and procedures may be more or less uniform across a branch, but there is no centralized "DOD Police" (or DA Police, etc) at a national level. The DOD Police thing comes from previous attempts to standardize uniforms and create a perception of independence, so many bases went to a DOD Police patch that mostly just confused things even for the officers themselves. Civilian base police are federal law enforcement officers whose jurisdiction is basically on military property, although they may be allowed to enforce the UCMJ off property as well. Aside from Pentagon and NSA Police, police authority across DOD is delegated from the commanding officer and not statutoriy defined under Federal law.

    On the original question, seaker, you can rest assured that DOJ is unlikely to "take over" military police functions on US bases anytime soon. This would require significant statutory changes that as far as I know have not even been proposed in Congress. Also a lot of political and logistical issues. DOJ is not a police agency and has no real uniform police element outside of the very small FBI Police, and doesn't have the infrastructure to take over what amounts to a couple hundred different police departments on bases across the country. DHS would be a more realistic home for this type function, but I doubt you will find a lot of traction for that either.
    Last edited by nsedet; 05-30-2010 at 17:10.

  4. #4
    seaker is offline Officer
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    Thank you.

    10-4 Nsedet

  5. #5
    seaker is offline Officer
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    kegan if it was shipyard than it was most likly a security guard. It could have been a uniformed officer or security. Did he issue an 1805? lol Wow been a long time for me, was it 1405. Oh boy.

    seaker

  6. #6
    Bearcat06's Avatar
    Bearcat06 is offline Sergeant
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    Quote Originally Posted by seaker View Post
    I was told from a source in Hawaii that some of the 0083 detective positions were not filled.
    As stated....not going to happen. I know that for fact........

  7. #7
    Shamrock0211 is offline Sergeant
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    independent agency working police and investigations on bases
    These already exist in the form of the MCIO's. Every installation in the world is covered by some shape or form by an MCIO, even if those installations do not have a field office present.
    God Created Guinness To Ensure The Irish Will Not Rule the World

  8. #8
    Sgt Jon's Avatar
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    This “question” comes up every few years for an unknown reason. Perhaps it is wishful thinking on the part of the 0083’s working on the bases that have to deal with real or perceived issues. Last rumor was that DHS/FPS was going to take over. None of these “rumors” have ever had merit.

    Recently the Army was assigned the task of standardizing training and related areas for all Civilian Police and Security Guards, with each service taking the lead in establishing their wants and needs.

    As NSEDET clarified, DOD Police is a misnomer; the Police are GS Series 0083’s and a few GS 0085’s (Guards) who wear police patches and badges (which is and has been established to be above board based on internal security practices.). They are basically local (base) cops. While the workload varies greatly from one base to the next, they tend to do the full range of police work.

    There has been much debate over statutory authority for DOD Cops, some argue yes and others no. In short, they derive their authority from their respective Base Commanders who receives his/her authority via Titles 5 and 10 of the US Code; which authorize arming of military personnel (military and civilians) for law enforcement, security and related functions.

    As for local investigations, the uniformed cops tend to do short-term investigations with follow-on being done by 0083 Detectives, Command Investigators, Military Police Investigators or the like, which are command level. NCIS (Navy) CID (Army), CID (Marines) and OSI (Air Force) are the felony level and specific type case investigators, though they can and do defer investigations to local investigators.

    In my experience, Base Police tend to have a good degree of autonomy though this can and seems to vary depending on location. Mission can be primarily force protection/security, or the earlier noted full service activities.

    As for why specific vacancies are not filled, this could be a budget issue and/or lack of qualified candidates or in my experience, the HR person is on holiday
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  9. #9
    Kimble's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sgt Jon View Post
    NCIS (Navy),... CID (Marines)... are the felony level and specific type case investigators, though they can and do defer investigations to local investigators.
    Just to clarify, NCIS works felony investigations for the Navy and Marine Corps. USMC CID typically works misdemeanors, though they do also work felonies that NCIS does not assume. Also, a small corps of USMC CID agents are temporarily credentialed and detailed to NCIS as SAs, though the word I've heard for the past few years (including from military NCIS SAs who were detailed from USMC CID) is this program is being reduced, if not all together phased out.
    "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." -Edmund Burke

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  10. #10
    TankerGuy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kimble View Post
    Just to clarify, NCIS works felony investigations for the Navy and Marine Corps. USMC CID typically works misdemeanors, though they do also work felonies that NCIS does not assume. Also, a small corps of USMC CID agents are temporarily credentialed and detailed to NCIS as SAs, though the word I've heard for the past few years (including from military NCIS SAs who were detailed from USMC CID) is this program is being reduced, if not all together phased out.
    I wonder if they are thinking of phasing out the military NCIS SA's because of current manpower needs in deployed environments or because many may or do (not sure) become civilian agents.

    Either way, I think we may be losing a valuable asset by phasing them out. I mean, there are so few already. Just curious.

    Tankerguy

  11. #11
    Kimble's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TankerGuy View Post
    I wonder if they are thinking of phasing out the military NCIS SA's because of current manpower needs in deployed environments or because many may or do (not sure) become civilian agents.

    Either way, I think we may be losing a valuable asset by phasing them out. I mean, there are so few already. Just curious.

    Tankerguy
    Valid question, and I wonder the same thing. I've probably only worked with a half dozen or so Marine SA's (those who are active duty and detailed from USMC CID) with NCIS. All were stand-up investigators who knew the military and UCMJ. Regardless of the manpower needs in deployable theaters, the system of bringing over MSA's from USMC CID (temporary or otherwise) is a system that works well, and if it ain't broke why fix it? I do know that USMC CID sees the benefit of allowing their agents to be detailed to NCIS related to internal promotional reasons, so they may have a dog in the fight for phasing out the program if they're not having a large number of their agents return to seek promotions within their outfit... not sure.

    I had 2 MSA's in my CITP class, but I'm not sure of the number of MSAs that convert to civilian 1811's vice returning to USMC CID.
    "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." -Edmund Burke

    "Society prepares the crime; the criminal commits it." -Chinese proverb

  12. #12
    LA Express's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kimble View Post
    I had 2 MSA's in my CITP class, but I'm not sure of the number of MSAs that convert to civilian 1811's vice returning to USMC CID.
    It's not as many as you might think, though there are several who have done so. It's not as many because it's not as easy as it probably should be. As I'm sure you already know, but for other's benefit, NCIS MSAs do their basic investigator training at Ft. Leonard Wood's CID school, but that training doesn't satisfy NCIS's CITP requirement. This despite the fact MSAs later attend NCIS SABT. So while it may be a no-brainer that once you get out of the USMC, you apply to NCIS and do your CITP time, it's not always that easy a decision for a variety of reasons, even assuming the former MSA is accepted (usually they are for obvious reasons, but not always). I can list the reasons, but let's just say a "move" to essentially remain an NCIS agent isn't always a long-term career aspiration, again for a number of reasons. And even after weighing all the pros and cons, you still have to go through CITP, which isn't always a pleasant thought. Worth it in the end if you want to permanently become an 1811, no doubt, but sometimes it can serve as one obstacle too many. Now, if the Leonard Wood training was accepted as satisfying CITP requirements, ala Quantico and Potomac, and probably as it should be, then no doubt you'd see a ton of post-USMC career transitions.
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  13. #13
    bushmasta's Avatar
    bushmasta is offline Lieutenant
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    A buddy of mine is a civilian USMC CID 1811, he supervises 4 SA under him that are all civilian and all have attended CITP, only two of them had CID school, and both had from their previous army experience, and they still attended FLETC. They are 12d/6c get leap but only journey to 11 and supervisor is 12/13 (said he wasn't sure until the payband conversion is done, though they have already completed the PD for his SAs).

    He has NCIS SAs at his office as well, though CID outnumbers them, and they do felony level investigations (CID). From what he told me the military CID are being pulled b/c it doesn't help their career long term if they stay with NCIS, as the USMC has req. for promotions. I don't know how true that is. He said the USMC plans to expand civilian CID positions, although NCIS is to happy about it.

    Pretty cool badge, same shape as NCIS badge.
    Last edited by bushmasta; 06-03-2010 at 20:38.

  14. #14
    Sgt Jon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kimble View Post
    Just to clarify, NCIS works felony investigations for the Navy and Marine Corps. USMC CID typically works misdemeanors, though they do also work felonies that NCIS does not assume. Also, a small corps of USMC CID agents are temporarily credentialed and detailed to NCIS as SAs, though the word I've heard for the past few years (including from military NCIS SAs who were detailed from USMC CID) is this program is being reduced, if not all together phased out.
    Didn’t mean to over generalize, just simplified it for ease of discussion.

    While not in the SA/CI realm, I know several Master at Arms (Chiefs and Senior Chiefs) who are detailed to NCIS STAAT (Security Training Assessment and Assistance Teams) and find the separation from the Fleet and their respective junior Sailors an impediment to career growth; the same may apply to Marines detailed as Agents as well. The Sailors in question have a very specialized mission with STAAT but do not have anyone “working” for them or anyone to mentor and supervise, which is a step in the promotion process.

    My military counterpart is a LDO Commander who came from the MA community, but he has never mentioned what, if any routes exist for active duty folks to cross over to civilian 1811’s. As for the why and what if questions related to active duty working as Agents, I am in the dark there.
    Depart not from the path fate has you assigned- a fortune cookie.
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