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  1. #1
    zz25 is offline Officer
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    Federal Agents and off-duty carry

    I was told that AFOSI Special Agents can carry their duty weapon (Sig P228 in 9mm) off-duty at their discretion only if they also carry their credentials, cuffs, OC spray, and a spare magazine. If you want to carry any other weapon off-duty, you must have the applicable state concealed-carry permit and your own weapon. Is this the norm for most fed positions, particularly other 1811's? If so, do you guys find it awkward to carry all of this stuff when off-duty or do you just get the state permit?

    I had asked this question b/c I own a H&K .40 compact USP. I was thinking of selling it before going to the AFOSI academy. If anything I would sell it and get my own Sig P228 and state permit b/c I feel that it is better to carry the same weapon all of the time (you don't want to handle a strange weapon under stress---my opinion).

  2. #2
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    Off-Duty Carry

    I would carry the same weapon as issued for liability - if you had to use it. Say you shoot an assailant off-duty, the perps defense could raise the question as to if you are trained/qualified in the use and handling of THAT firearm in front of a jury (this can happen). If you used your service weapon off duty you can articulate through records, training certifications, qualifications etc..that Yes..you are trained/qualified in all aspects of that firearm and the Federal government issued it to you. It’s just an added layer of protection on your part.

    If your agency will qualify and issue you a backup weapon, I would carry that.

  3. #3
    91-New Guest
    Whenever OSI agents arm, they must carry:

    Issued weapon (no personal personal firearm allowed); issued OC spray (unless restricted by local law or flying on any aircraft); badge and credentials; cuffs; and government procured ammo.

    The requirement to carry OC spray, creds, and cuffs may be waived by your boss for operational reasons on an event-by-event basis.

    If OSI agents want to obtain a permit to carry a firearm for personal reasons while "off-duty," they must comply with all applicable laws and explain to the permitting authority that the permit is for personal reasons and not associated with their agent status. Obvioulsy, agents may not use their
    badge to justify or authorize carrying a personally owned weapon.

  4. #4
    nsedet's Avatar
    nsedet is offline Moderator
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    Re: Federal Agents and off-duty carry

    Originally posted by zz25
    Is this the norm for most fed positions, particularly other 1811's?
    There is no "norm" in the Federal system. One of my former agencies authorized off-duty carry of your service-weapon, but did NOT allow agents to carry non-lethal weapons off-duty (even though both OC and ASP were authorized while ON duty)...makes no sense, but there you go. Most of the agencies I am familiar with leave it up to the discretion of the agents (except, of course, all require you to carry your creds and shield if you are carrying your service-weapon).

    Regardless of agency policy, you should (at a minimum) carry a set of handcuffs with you at all times when armed, both for practical and liability reasons. Depending on agency policy, you may be able to carry a set of disposable nylon rope restraints (which you can throw in your pocket), rather than your issued cuffs.

  5. #5
    kennethm3's Avatar
    kennethm3 is offline Chief
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    Most Federal Agencies that I am familiar with restrict off duty carry to service issued or apporoved firearms and ammunition only, so, for example, if you have a shooting with your personally owned but not approved Glock and you are issued and authorized a Sig don't expect your agency to come to your aid legally. They will leave you out hanging in the breeze to face any criminal or civil liability all by your lonesome. Read the "fine print" in your services firearms policy before carrying anything other than service issued or approved. Stay safe out there.

  6. #6
    zz25 is offline Officer
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    Thanks for the info, gentlemen. NSEDET, since I come from a military background, I was thinking prusik cuffs made of 550 parachute cord or nylon zip ties for off-duty "hand-cuffs". Whatever the policy, I'll be happy to get used to it. Thanks again.----ZZ

  7. #7
    windflyer Guest
    Originally posted by zz25
    [I was thinking prusik cuffs made of 550 parachute cord or nylon zip ties for off-duty "hand-cuffs". Whatever the policy, I'll be happy to get used to it. Thanks again.----ZZ [/B]

    Dude, do you know what your getting yourself into? Do you not realize once you leave the base you have absolutely ZERO jurisdiction or authority to put whatever you described as handcuffs on anyone except yourself or....nevermind.

    You have no arrest authority, so why would you even carry a weapon (assuming you checked it out of the safe before you left for the day because no one carries their gun anyways) other than to protect yourself which any citizen in the USA can do. So you are no different than Billy Bob in the trailer park who has a Sig or whatever osi carries.

    I think instead of worrying what kind of handcuffs you will be carrying "off-duty" or what "belt" is best to carry your weapon you should do some more research into being an osi agent.

    Also, no matter how hi speed OSI is, if you develop anything remotely close to being hi speed chances are you wil be contacting one of the bigger agencies, especially if its counterintelligence (FBI being the lead on ALL CI/ESPIONAGE investigations in the USA or the CIA overseas who is the lead on anything operational intelligence related )

    Now, you might be lucky and the FBI declines interest initially but they will usaully caveat the declination with "keep me posted on any new developments" which means you will be doing all the work until it becomes more hi speed and then the FBI will jump right in, and if your lucky, work it jointly. Which really means you will just be gathering records on base since you have easier access to them.

    If its big time drugs you will be calling the DEA or the local PD drug squad especially if it goes off base, where, let me remind you, you have ZERO jurisdiction. Basically if you go off base your commander, who probably is younger than you and just became an officer will tell you to call the locals to see if they can do what you want to do becuase he certainly doesnt want to ruin his chances of progressing his career in OSI by doing law enforcment duties unilateraly and screwing it up. I have heard they will let you watch as they go thru the door and make the arrests.

    Also, have you recently asked local law enforcement officers if they have even heard of OSI other than in the 6 million dollar man???

    I am not trying to burst your bubble but just trying to give you some truth. I am not sure who you have been talking to but they probably dont tell you this kind of stuff and I wouldnt either if I was trying to hire someone. I am sure the person who interviewed you didnt tell you the half of it.

    Dont get me wrong, OSI is a good little agency, but from what I have heard it is better to be FROM osi then to actually be IN osi.



    WINDFLYER

  8. #8
    geodetective's Avatar
    geodetective is offline Sergeant
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    Windflyer:

    Although I doubt you are here to win the hearts and minds of fellow forum members, posts, such as the one above are generally not welcomed here. Your antagonistic tone is sure to alienate you, particularly since you dared to expose it on your first post.

    Furthermore, while we value the contributions of a number of well-informed and experienced individuals who post here, we also frown on individuals who make broad generalizations on topics of which they know little. Case in point:

    " Dude, do you know what your getting yourself into? Do you not realize once you leave the base you have absolutely ZERO jurisdiction or authority to put whatever you described as handcuffs on anyone except yourself or....nevermind."

    In fact, investigators with the MICOs have worldwide authority and may place the habeus grabus on any individual subject to the UCMJ, regardless if they are on Nellis AFB or the French Riviera.

    I don't know what your background is, but it seems that you might have some worthwhile knowledge to share with the board. Keep in mind that you are not the guru of all. If you have something positive to contribute, we will all be glad to listen. Otherwise, keep it to yourself.

    By the way, I'm a local law enforcement officer and I know exactly what OSI is. But what the hell is this 6 million dollar man?

    Regards,

    Geo

  9. #9
    zz25 is offline Officer
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    Windflyer

    I appreciate your concern for me concerning a recruiter painting the best possible picture of their agency. If an agent isn't motivated when speaking about his/her agency to a potential new hire then I might be worried. At any rate none of the information I got was false, as I've since had an opportunity to view some of these things first hand. I didn't choose AFOSI because I had some far-flung notion of it being "high speed". I got that kind of thing out of my system when I was young (er) and dumb (er) during my time in the service. It's all relative anyway. What's high speed to you may not be for me and vice versa. I went with AFOSI because of their diversity of mission, connection to the military, and the professionalism of the agents that I met during the application process. Nothing I've seen so far (in a short time) has made me think otherwise. Of course it's entirely possible that after a few years I'll join the millions of other Americans who change jobs each year and head for perceived greener pastures----or maybe I'll spend 25 years here. Only time will tell. The question about off-duty carry was really just a manifestation of idle curiosity. And what better place to ask about what kind of belt to get than this forum? Particularly when the thought about a belt for concealed carry never crossed my mind, until....I noticed it was a required item on the agency packing list for the academy. And hence my reason for asking. If I'm going to go out and spend some of my hard-earned money, I might as well get some advice from people with a whole lot more experience in this arena than myself. If I'm not mistaken, that's exactly what the board is for. As Geodetective said, it sounds like you have some experience. Why not share some of it constructively? Were you an AFOSI agent at some point? What are you doing now? I always appreciate a heads-up from someone who's been there. Good luck all and have a safe 4th.-----ZZ

  10. #10
    windflyer Guest

    Observations

    My reason for posting the message was becuase after reading several other posts I noticed how everything is painted so rosey and great when it comes to LE jobs. So I figured I would offer a different view on things. I hope that can be respected. I am sure everyone is capable of making their own conclusions and decisions regardless of what is written.

    GEO, your correct MCIOS do have jurisdiction over those subject to the UCMJ. However, except on bases where else have you seen a large concentration of UCMJ subjected people in uniform so you can tell they are subject to the UCMJ??? I dont think people involved in criminal activity will be wearing their uniforms so that OSI agents can arrest them when they commit a crime. oh, come on you never watched lee majors and the 6 million $$ man?? Oscar goldman was his co-star. As a matter of fact, from what they tell me the OSI recruiting video is narrated by Oscar Goldman.

    Hence, the locals will arrest them and later on realize they are military members and hopefully will call the MCIO responsible.

    You might think these are broad generalizations but its also fact.

    ZZ- good luck in your career. it sounds like you are intelligent especially since you mentioned moving on after a few years. I just dont want you to be disappointed. Also, next time you talk to some big wig or recruiter ask them what is the retention rate among Officers and Civilian agents. I bet he wont tell you and if he is honest he will tell you its no more than 3 yrs. Just a heads up. Also, when I said HI speed it did not refer to just kicking down doors type stuff, it meant Hi speed complex investigations whether it be fraud, ci, or environmental crime. Plus, wouldnt you want to DO hi speed cases? Or would you be satisfied with just getting a paycheck? You sound like you would want to work hi speed stuff. There is no doubt you will gain a ton of experience in OSI. You will do all the basics of criminal investigations, i.e. interviews, interrogations, source handling, cases, dealing with atty's. etc But from what my buddy told me its all low level stuff. In the CI world like I said you will be working with the FBI for the most part. But if thats ok with you then you are a great fit for them.

    see ya and happy 4th to all.

    WF

  11. #11
    nsedet's Avatar
    nsedet is offline Moderator
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    Originally posted by windflyer
    Also, no matter how hi speed OSI is, if you develop anything remotely close to being hi speed chances are you wil be contacting one of the bigger agencies, especially if its counterintelligence (FBI being the lead on ALL CI/ESPIONAGE investigations in the USA or the CIA overseas who is the lead on anything operational intelligence related )

    Now, you might be lucky and the FBI declines interest initially but they will usaully caveat the declination with "keep me posted on any new developments" which means you will be doing all the work until it becomes more hi speed and then the FBI will jump right in, and if your lucky, work it jointly. Which really means you will just be gathering records on base since you have easier access to them.

    If its big time drugs you will be calling the DEA or the local PD drug squad especially if it goes off base, where, let me remind you, you have ZERO jurisdiction.
    windflyer,
    While it's good to give a realistic picture of working for the MCIO's, have you ever actually worked for either AFOSI or NCIS? Or with them? Your views of how things work are a little bit warped.

    On the drugs issue, you are clearly mistaken. Drug cases worked by the MCIO's often stay with the MCIO's. MCIO-led drug cases make the news all the time, and there are a lot of major dist. cases that don't receive any publicity. Somewhere up the line, when civilian suspects are identified, you are right that either DEA or the locals (more often it is the locals) will be brought in, but there are huge drug rings (esp. MDMA) that involve or target military personnel. As long as there is a military nexus, the MCIOs are good to go as far as running their case...NCIS has by far the broadest view of what constitutes a military nexus, and sales to military members is good enough to get their agents to work a case. I don't know whether AFOSI has worked it out for their civilian agents, but NCIS agents now have civilian (Federal) arrest authority.

    Also, it's kind of interesting that your little rant about AFOSI seemed to originate from a simple post about carrying restraints off-duty. First, the issue of AFOSI agents carrying off-duty (or off-post) is really no different than for any other FEDERAL agent. All of us have limited jurisdiction. Aside from a bank robbery, most of the crimes we would run into (or have run into us) would be state crimes...whether it be an FBI agent, DSS agent, NPS ranger, or AFOSI agent who stumbles into a convenience store robbery, the FEDERAL agent probably does not have any jurisdiction over that state crime. So, the question of why an AFOSI agent would carry off duty is not very far removed from the question of why ANY Federal agent would carry off-duty. The answer, to me, is pretty simple: no matter what, my family and I will be going home at the end of the day. Not an issue of stepping in to stop a fight in progress, more of intervening to save a life. Once you figure out that you want to carry your weapon off-duty for whatever reason (personal protection being most common), then carrying handcuffs is pretty much a necessity...many agency policies require you to carry cuffs when you carry a sidearm; common sense and potential liability issues would generally dictate you carry some type of restraints, regardless of your agency's policy.

    Since your post didn't really address any question asked here, windflyer, what it comes across as is someone with some real hostility (or perhaps a little bit of ignorance, or a little bit of knowledge, which is the same thing) regarding AFOSI. (Also interesting comment that "no one carries their gun anyways (sic)", because every AFOSI agent I have worked with has been armed at the time).

  12. #12
    justwondering Guest
    Windflyer--NO SOUP FOR YOU!!

  13. #13
    SkipInHiro Guest

    ARREST AUTH

    A search on the board should show that NCIS now has federal arrest auth (SOP still in the works). I am not sure about OSI, but I would not be surprised if the same law applies to them.

    Semper Fi

  14. #14
    sgt. w-2 is offline Officer
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    Just a comment to all of these posts, the best advice you can get is from someone who has "been there". I wouldn't comment at all on the OSI, because I've never worked for them. Best advice is from Gonzo who has worked the job. So zz25, that's what I'd go with.

    As far as off duty carry, I would recommend it for anyone who is active or retired. You never know who you are going to run into who still holds a grudge. So even if you don't plan on popping a 12 year old kid lifting a pack of gum from the 7-11 by declaring yourself as a federal agent, you should always consider off duty carry for personal safety. Even if you are off base, you may stop into the gas station and run into a recent arrest.

    Prime example is a Detroit Police Officer was killed last year getting gas, after she ran into someone who she had recently arrested who still held a grudge. She was gunned down in the parking lot.

    Finally, as far as bad comments about OSI, a job is always what you make of it. Only way a crappy agency will ever get any better as if the individual members of that department work for change.

  15. #15
    996s's Avatar
    996s is offline Sergeant
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    I would say you all are making good points. Windtalker, I have seen some of the stuff you mentioned happen. FBI taking over cases from OSI when they got too big, or to interesting. At the same time I have seen OSI do alot of cases from start to finish, but that only seems to be on smaller issues, drug use, rape, etc...

    All in All, I would say OSI is good, I know a few agents and they have a heavy caseload and dont stick around too long. I personally have worked WITH them enough to know I would not like to work FOR them. Thats just my .02 though. If you get in, if nothing else its a great stepping stone, get the school, some experiance and you can move on if you choose too.
    God Created Cops So Firefighters Could Have Heros!


 

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