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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
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    11

    1811 - No vet pref

    I am currently a junior at a local university, my major is accounting with a pretty high GPA (3.7-3.8, fluctuates). It seems like being an 1811 is a job I would really enjoy, but it's almost impossible to be hired without veterans preference, as much as I know I would like to serve, I cannot, as I would be medically disqualified. My medical issues are nothing that would stop me from being an 1811.

    Realistically, is there any chance I will ever be hired without vet pref, or would I be wasting my time applying?
    Is there anything else I could do to boost my resume?

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Posts
    51
    Quote Originally Posted by taylorrobbie View Post
    I am currently a junior at a local university, my major is accounting with a pretty high GPA (3.7-3.8, fluctuates). It seems like being an 1811 is a job I would really enjoy, but it's almost impossible to be hired without veterans preference, as much as I know I would like to serve, I cannot, as I would be medically disqualified. My medical issues are nothing that would stop me from being an 1811.

    Realistically, is there any chance I will ever be hired without vet pref, or would I be wasting my time applying?
    Is there anything else I could do to boost my resume?
    Always apply man. If your major is accounting look at the IRS-1811, FBI (I think you will need 2-3 years working experience), and etc. If I were you I would also seek out internships in agencies with OIGs. There is also the Pathways Program. Good luck man.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Oct 2000
    Posts
    7,369
    Yes, you can get hired as an 1811 without being a veteran even with a current applicant pool that has a high percentage of 5 and 10 point preference eligible applicants. There are numerous hiring authorities within the federal system, and the impact of veterans preference varies based on the hiring authority. Getting into the federal system as a career service employee can open up vacancies by allowing you to apply to "status only" announcements...so if you can get your foot in the door with CBP or another non-1811 position, it can help with your long term goal beyond just the experience itself. In addition, Excepted Service agencies like FBI and NCIS have different hiring processes and greater flexibility in terms of their applicant pool. Lots of options even without being a veteran.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
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    11
    Can you elaborate what you mean by excepted service agencies such as FBI, NCIS? How are the hiring practices different?

    Thanks

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Posts
    28
    The majority of 1811's I worked with were not veterans. Like SJ said, always apply...but don't restrict your applications to just a few agencies...shotgun them out to all that are taking apps.

    That being said, you would also have to consider taking a "stepping stone" position within the USG to make yourself more competitive. You should look to other USG non 1811 positions that will take on a college grad. Look at 1810/1801 positions. Maybe instead of military service, do three years with the mean green machine (Border Patrol)...that will sharpen your LE skills, fast. Look outside the box...do some time with the DOD Contracts Management Admin and learn the procurement world...most 1811 outfits like that stuff...good background for fraud. Basically take whatever USG job you can get that will teach you some type of skill appealable to 1811 agencies...plus it gets you in the pay/benefits/retirement system. When you change jobs, your time in and salary go with you.

    Competitive vice excepted service...how I interpret the difference in a nutshell is this...agencies that are competitive service use a written test and other things (like PT test, interview board, etc) to establish a list of candidates by a point score. Vets can add 5 or 10 points to the score. The hiring agency mostly has to hire the higher scoring candidates. Excepted service (also known as non-competitive) use primarily the same process (sometimes without the written test), but basically decide to hire who they want...who they feel would be a good fit for the agency. Passing the steps/tests just move them forward in the consideration process. Broad strokes...maybe someone else could add to this.

    Good luck.

  6. #6
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    Nov 2013
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    11
    Thanks!

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Oct 2000
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    7,369
    Quote Originally Posted by Annuitant View Post
    Competitive vice excepted service...how I interpret the difference in a nutshell is this...agencies that are competitive service use a written test and other things (like PT test, interview board, etc) to establish a list of candidates by a point score. Vets can add 5 or 10 points to the score. The hiring agency mostly has to hire the higher scoring candidates. Excepted service (also known as non-competitive) use primarily the same process (sometimes without the written test), but basically decide to hire who they want...who they feel would be a good fit for the agency. Passing the steps/tests just move them forward in the consideration process. Broad strokes...maybe someone else could add to this.
    You are on the right track, although parts of that description are not entirely accurate. The "simple" version is that competitive service agencies must hire under OPM authorities and regulations, and candidates are competing against each other (this can be through a written test, although now it is more often through the application questionaire and panel interview ratings). For public hiring, the agency must post a vacancy announcement, rate applicants in some fashion, apply veterans preference in the rating process, and hire from the top three candidates on the list. This gets a little more complicated when an agency has multiple rating phases (for example, an application phase followed by a panel interview), but as a general rule it will be the top rated candidates who move through the hiring process.

    Excepted service agencies are exempted from OPM competitive service requirements, and can establish their own hiring processes. The result may be a hiring process that closely resembles that of a competitive service agency, or one that is completely different. Rather than picking from the top scoring candidates, for example, the agency can prioritize candidates in its hiring pool based on specific needs or hiring priorities. The agency can also simply move a qualified candidate forward in the process without ever announcing the vacancy.

    To make it more complicated, some competitive service agencies have the authority to hire under excepted service provisions for certain positions. Most Defense Criminal Investigative Service (DCIS) positions are competitive service, but their 1811 agents are classified as excepted service and hired by a process that seems to involve the SAC pulling a resume out of his or her desk drawer.

    And some agencies use excepted service hiring authorities for initial hiring and then convert the positions to competitive service after their probationary period. That is how ATF has done its hiring in the past. The benefit for those agencies is that they get greater hiring flexibility, but once you get past probation you have the protections of being a career status employee.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Atlanta, GA
    Posts
    6,371
    The above answers are responsive, particularly nsedet's, but I want to take a different tack with you.

    The Office of Personnel Management puts it this way:

    The Federal Government consists of three types of services, the Competitive Service, the Excepted Service, and the Senior Executive Service. The competitive service consists of all civil service positions in the executive branch of the Federal Government with some exceptions. The exceptions are defined in section 2102 of title 5, United States Code (5 U.S.C. 2102)
    In the competitive service, individual must go through a competitive process (i.e. competitive examining) which is open to all applicants. This process may consist of a written test, an evaluation of the individual's education and experience, and/or an evaluation of other attributes necessary for successful performance in the position to be filled.
    Appointments to the Excepted Service are civil service appointments within the Federal Government that do not confer competitive status. There are a number of ways to be appointed to the excepted service such as appointed under an authority defined by the U.S. Office of Personnel Management (OPM) as excepted (e.g. Veterans Recruitment Appointment) or being appointed to a position defined by OPM as excepted (e.g. Attorneys) More information can be found about the excepted service in 5 U.S.C. 2103 and parts 213 and 302 of title 5 of the Code of Federal Regulations.
    You'll note that Veteran's Recruitment Authority is itself an excepted service appointment, so the lines are not that clear. They are made more confusing by a variety of approaches the agencies take, including applying competitive services practices (testing and screening) to excepted service hiring and converting excepted service employees somewhere up the road as nsedet notes about ATF. The good news is that whether or not a position is excepted service or competitive service should make no practical difference to the applicant. You can and should be prepared to apply for any announcement where you meet the stated qualifications. Sometimes agencies have posted separate announcements under different hiring authorities, you should apply under all that you qualify for. Veteran's, for example can apply under VRA as well as open announcements if they meet the qualifications for both.

    I would guide you to look at some of the new internship programs (check the link on USAjobs), because even without veterans' status getting on board as a newly minted undergraduate is about as hard as it gets absent one of those internship opportunities. It happens, and perhaps you are one of those significantly mature and self-aware persons who come through from time to time, but the long odds of getting hired are significantly longer. There will be large blocks of veterans for some years to come in the process and regardless of hiring authority, agencies will give them every consideration. I recommend you worry less about the hiring authority behind the announcement and focus on things like graduate degrees and work experience that you can control and will help you perform in whatever process becomes available to you.
    Last edited by ATF SAC; 02-24-2014 at 14:31.
    ret.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Posts
    11
    In that case, would it be a better choice to get a job as a gov. accountant (my major), or get on with the local PD to get some le experience, perhaps on a special team, work as a detective, etc...

    All while pursuing masters?

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Posts
    406
    Quote Originally Posted by taylorrobbie View Post
    In that case, would it be a better choice to get a job as a gov. accountant (my major), or get on with the local PD to get some le experience, perhaps on a special team, work as a detective, etc...

    All while pursuing masters?

    I'd say be an accountant and get your CPA as well, if you want to be an 1811. The only local PD experience that will matter is DETECTIVE experience; you're going to start out on patrol. At the same time, do what makes you happy and assume you will never be an 1811. Local PD would probably be a great career in the long run, assuming it's a decent sized PD with good movement opportunities. Being a local PD detective at a large PD is just as good as being an 1811 (if not better, because you can work off-duty/overtime, change assignments, whatever), but you may not make as much $.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Posts
    17
    Quote Originally Posted by taylorrobbie View Post
    I am currently a junior at a local university, my major is accounting with a pretty high GPA (3.7-3.8, fluctuates). It seems like being an 1811 is a job I would really enjoy, but it's almost impossible to be hired without veterans preference, as much as I know I would like to serve, I cannot, as I would be medically disqualified. My medical issues are nothing that would stop me from being an 1811.

    Realistically, is there any chance I will ever be hired without vet pref, or would I be wasting my time applying?
    Is there anything else I could do to boost my resume?
    VET preference thing is way overrated. It did nothing for me. Your high GPA will serve you way better than any amount of military service can. I have a BS in COMP SCI, numerous certifications and 8 years as an Army Intel officer. However, my gpa was a 2.9, ,nearly all 1811 require 3.0. I had to go back for my masters to even be considered, and never did vet pref ever come into play.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Posts
    5
    Quote Originally Posted by taylorrobbie View Post
    Realistically, is there any chance I will ever be hired without vet pref, or would I be wasting my time applying? Is there anything else I could do to boost my resume?
    The notion that you have to be a military veteran to get hired as an 1811 is ridiculous, so just wipe that idea from your mind from the start. The bottom line is this; you are still very, very young. You are competing against people for many 1811 positions that are far more educated, experienced, and seasoned than you currently are. With that being said, the weight that are put into those factors change on 'any given Sunday,' and many new agents are hired who appear to others to be "less qualified" than some applicants who did not get the job. Why? Probably because of character... the character of the applicant is the number one factor that will decide whether a qualified applicant is chosen for a position.

    Now, I understand that having military veteran's preference points is always better than not having them. However, do not act like that is your crutch because there are are overwhelming number of current and future 1811's who are not military veterans.

    To boost your resume, I would recommend you continue your education after college. Go for a Master's or law degree while trying to gain law enforcement experience at a local, county, or state agency. A few years later, throw an application in with an 1811 position and see where it goes. Even then, you'll still be going up against fierce competition. Good luck!

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Posts
    28
    Quote Originally Posted by taylorrobbie View Post
    In that case, would it be a better choice to get a job as a gov. accountant (my major), or get on with the local PD to get some le experience, perhaps on a special team, work as a detective, etc...

    All while pursuing masters?
    Depends...if your absolute final goal is to be an 1811, then yes, I would go with the USG Accountant position, for reasons I stated above. Better yet, be an accountant with the IRS...gets you a foot in the door to be one of their 1811's later. However, there is always the chance you will not land that 1811 job, so if the thought of being an accountant for next 20-30 years doesn't float your boat, then I would go with local PD...this at least gives you the option of a plan "B"...which is to make your stepping stone job (local PD) your career job.


 

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